1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

British Sailors Captured By Iran

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Barmy Army, Mar 24, 2007.

  1. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    T2,
    the Iranian aircraft you listed are about the numerical equivalent of three US carrier combat groups, probably less. And that does leave out the technical edge the US have. You really expect the Brits to rush into war with Iran without the US, who are practically itching for it?

    As for the missile and small boat threat, it's very real. However, I think if it gets hot the real fight will be for the US supply lines in sourth Iraq.
     
  2. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    I actually agree with Ragusa on this one. Of all the planes you listed, all of them are really old, and not really used anymore by anyone with better than a second rate airforce, with the possible exception of the MiG-29.

    I also completely agree that there's no way that a war between the UK and Iran is happening, and certainly not happening without direct help from the US. Heck, we dragged them into a war in Iraq, the least we can do is help them out in return. One unfortunate point that I must concede is that with Bush in power for another year and a half, it leaves more than ample time for one last grand F-up, which a war with Iran would certainly qualify.
     
  3. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,774
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    440
    Gender:
    Male
    I have never said the Iranians would be able to stand against a coalition force. Merely that the UK is not capable of defeating them on their own -- which was the main premise of the thread. I also believe the US is not in a position to help much.

    Although many of the aircraft are old, they have been extremely well kept -- as evident by sightings recently of the F-14's in air. These are planes that the US has not allowed spare parts to be shipped to Iran since Ollie did it in the 80's. All Iranian aircraft are believed to be retrofitted with very modern weaponry (and only a fool would ignore such intel). The pilots are very well trained and highly motivated.

    I agree with Ragusa in that a three carrier battlegroup may be able to take them out if totally focused on Iran-- but the two carriers in the gulf (along with support from a Wasp class and a British carrier) would have quite a fight on their hands between trying to protect the fleet from the coastal raiders, dodging all the missiles (both surface-to-surface and surface-to-air), the Iranian Air Force, AND the current hostilities in Iraq.
     
  4. Darkwolf Gems: 18/31
    Latest gem: Horn Coral


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,033
    Likes Received:
    0
    Think about this...so we go to war with Iran...to what end (we being a coalition of the UK and US)? Are we just going to try to stand of and ruin them? Are we going to invade and replace the Iranian Gov't?

    If we just stand off and kick them in the teeth we are just going to have a bigger long term problem to deal with, and no guarantee to ever see the British Sailors. If we invade...I don't even want to think about it, but it will make the situation in Iraq look minor. The entire ME will think that we are incrementally taking over the entire region, and even if the neighboring Gov'ts don't actively participate, they will lend aid to insurgents and resistance at a level the dwarfs what is going on in Iraq.

    Other than a surgical strike to remove the prisoners there is no military option here.
     
  5. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    6,586
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    162
    That's what I thinking about (the last sentence). To show we're powerful and not to be ****ed with in such a way, send in a crack squad. Two minutes, in, out, back in time for breakfast, sends exacvtly the right message. "Who Dares Wins".


    [No getting around the censoring software with sneakily accented vowels please] - dmc

    [ March 28, 2007, 00:02: Message edited by: dmc ]
     
  6. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,774
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    440
    Gender:
    Male
    Hmm.. sound vaguely familiar. My ex-brother-in-law was part of the last attmept to rescue people from Iran. It didn't go so well then.

    I doubt all the prisoners are being kept in the same location.
     
  7. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Another very huge advantage of the US are their AIM-120 AMRAAM BVR-AAM, MIDS/ JTIDS and the APS-145/ ALR-73 PDS combo ...
    :evil: Mwahahaha :evil: Whoever understands that garble (it isn't), qualifies as an aircraft nerd :holy:
     
  8. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,774
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    440
    Gender:
    Male
    The E-2C is an amazing platform. The AWACS is second fiddle to it. There was a great cartoon which had the caption "The Air Force has finally found a solution to their AWACS problems." The picture was an E-2C strapped to a Boeing 707.

    The AIM-120 was the only way they could retire the F-14 -- although it doesn't quite have the range of the Phoenix.
     
  9. Darkwolf Gems: 18/31
    Latest gem: Horn Coral


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,033
    Likes Received:
    0
    That was another case of an administration trying to micromanage the military and not listening or giving them the tools they need to get the job done, but ordering them to do it anyway.

    Sounds familiar...history does repeat itself. :rolleyes:
     
  10. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    I dunno, I think that we should just stick with our superior ICBM systems. That'd learn 'em.

    What? They wouldn't learn anything, because they'd all be dead? Well, whatever. Same difference.
     
  11. jaded empath Gems: 20/31
    Latest gem: Garnet


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,284
    Likes Received:
    9
    :lol: Isn't it great to ad hominem? Especially when you have no knowledge about the other person's background or history of studies? :D

    I'll grant you that taking a carrier force against Iran is a very unwise course of action, but you, my friend, were lauding the 'guardians of Hormuz' so greatly, that I felt compelled to find a chink in this 'armour'.

    There is an old saw that my sieve-like memory is going to paraphrase as "Never engage a shore battery with a ship, because the shore battery cannot be sunk."

    So as such, don't do this; don't send air strikes of ground-attack aircraft from a carrier group, especially since there's plenty of enemy attack aircraft to follow your Gr.9 Harriers 'back to the roost'.

    Don't fight a shore emplacement from the water; instead fight it on the land - send covert specialists to eliminate the threat of the missile bases and local airfields.

    I only suggested SBS as opposed to SAS since marine insertion can be more difficult to detect than aerial - I'm sure all those fancy missiles and aircraft are complemented by competent radar sites that would quickly tag someone drifting into Iranian airspace and then you've got that large, forbidding air force where you don't want it - in the air and ready to fight.

    And that gets back to the PRINCIPLE of what I was trying to get at - don't fight on your opponent's terms. Deny him his strengths (for example sabotage those ship killer missile sites on the shoreline, mix sand into reserves of jet fuel, etc.) and attack him where his strength is nullified (a pilot outside of his aircraft is just an out-of-practice infantryman with a pistol; an anti-ship missile disconnected from its control systems is just a large tube filled with explosives and flammables).


    Oh, and about the history of Iran - sorry for the note of jest about Iranians 'picking up good manners' from the British officials & employees of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company that were sitting on them like a toad on a stone for all those years; I don't like remaining too serious in a long post; again my apologies that this attempt at humour apparently failed.
    (sarcasm is just a seven-letter word beginning with 's' for you, isn't it? ;) )


    S'funny; I thought that's what I was trying to say about yours - sorry for being obtuse again. *shrug*


    ...all this said, I don't think this 'tinderbox' will ever get lit - as others have said neither party would have enough potential gain to outweigh the risks; Iran isn't quite ready to take on the West, and the UK could recover their people much more easily through diplomacy than through force.
     
  12. Shadow Assassin Gems: 13/31
    Latest gem: Ziose


    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2001
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    0
    I keep hearing harrier, harrier, harrier. What about the new toy that we have coming next year? The USMC and the USN as well as the USAF are getting a new toy to replace the harrier. It's called the F-35b.
    oh, and on radar it shows up the size of a golf ball.
     
  13. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    Er, yes. Next year. At best.

    But Iran has prisoners now
     
  14. Shadow Assassin Gems: 13/31
    Latest gem: Ziose


    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2001
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    0
    no, not at best. It's just the beginning of a roll out. They'll be fully in service by 2012, but don't think they couldn't step it up if need be.
     
  15. Aikanaro Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    20
    It's a little scary how gung-ho the UKers in this thread sound.
     
  16. Carcaroth

    Carcaroth I call on the priests, saints and dancin' girls ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,655
    Likes Received:
    5
    Your'e scared? I have to live in this country!

    I have no idea whether we'd win a theoretical war with Iran by ourselves although I personally doubt it. I am almost 100% sure it will never come to it.

    We are always being led to believe we have pretty much the best Army in the world despite being rather lacking in the technological department. From what I can tell, even those with family in the military believe it - so who am I to argue. Hence why some of my fellow UKers are noticably tetchy when our fighting force is being called into question.

    However, after the stunning lack of prepararation the MOD appeared to put in to Iraq (Lack of Armour, equipment that failed in sandy conditions, Planes still without expanding foam in the fuel tanks to stop them exploding when shot at) coupled with the recent reporting of the horendous living conditions some of the lads have to endure IN THE UK, I have lost a lot of faith in our ability. Not of the soldiers themselves, but of any support systems that should be in place and are constantly being forgotten.
     
  17. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,774
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    440
    Gender:
    Male
    je: As a career military man I have helped planned the types of attacks you are advocating. Taking out one or two sites is fine, but 15 or so is impossible with the tactics you propose. By your tactics I assumed you only had experience in video and computer games -- in real life there is no Power Word: Reload. I think egress would be a problem and I would not be willing to send valuable assets on a suicide mission.

    I have been trying to point out a fundamental military principle: know your enemy. It seems many people in the world (not just on SP) believe Iran is a bunch of radical fanatics bent on using nuclear weapons on Isreal and the free world. That may be true, but they are also a dominant military force in the region with multi-faceted attack and defense capabilities. Their military is quite well-trained and very professional. And they are always expanding their abilities. I do not laud their abilities, but it would be a great mistake to underestimate them.
     
  18. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    I think most people were referring to Britain in terms of Harrier capabilities, and that won't change with this US deployment. The US already has a host of better attack planes than the Harrier. Also, the Lightning II is going to take a while to be fully deployed. There are no plans to retire the Harrier any time soon.

    I listed a bunch of planes the US use earlier in this thread. The F-18 is probably the most used one in service at this point, even though it isn't the most recently developed.

    The thing that surprises me the most is that this plane is being listed as the F-35. We have pretty much gone in order in the F-series, but AFAIK, the most recent F-series deployment is the Raptor, the F-22. I wonder why the big jump in numbers?

    EDIT: I just did a bit of research and I found out this. Evidently, the F-35 was a decendent of the X-35, hence the numbering scheme. The Lightning II appears to be a very long way from service though. The prototype took it's maiden flight in December 2006. It did perform very well, but given production times and minor modifications, it is not expected to enter into service prior to 2011.

    However, the most interesting piece the article sites is that the UK is funding part of the development costs, and is expected to purchase several of these aircraft from the US once they go into production.

    [ March 28, 2007, 18:32: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]
     
  19. Shadow Assassin Gems: 13/31
    Latest gem: Ziose


    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2001
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    0
    aldeth, the prototype flew in 2000, the first production model flew this past december. We start getting them in 08, they'll be in service by 2012. Meaning we'll have pilots trained in them and out in the fleet by 2012.
     
  20. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Aldeth,
    the highly modern F-18 E/F is the most recent incarnation of the Hornet, and just a couple of years old. Entered service quickly, too, little problems. It's replacing the venerable F-14 since three or so years. It is brand-new.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.