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Bottomless Bag...

Discussion in 'Icewind Dale 2' started by Searcher, Jan 27, 2022.

  1. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    The problem is that you spend most of the game without high level spells like Holy Word. Everybody acknowledged there were some good offensive high level spells, the discussion was on this:
    People tend to focus on late-game stuff, but if you have to play through 2/3 or more of the game before you can use something, it's not something to center your strategy or build around.

    So everybody knows 7th-9th level spells are powerful. What are the good offensive lower level spells?
    I disagree with the statement however, as I think the clerics get some OK offensive spells at the 2nd level (silence, hold person), but the good ones come at mid-level with 4th level spells. Not that Prayer isn't good at 3rd level, but Recitation is better (although they stack).

    One final thought on Chant. I tend to save it for when I'm almost out of spells to give a little extra to fighting since my cleric won't be able to heal anymore. The downside of being unable to cast won't matter if it's your last memorized spell. This is a fairly common thing when you are below 5th level as you don't have many spells to begin with.
    At higher levels, once I get Recitation and Prayer I don't memorize Chant much as Prayer and Recitation replaces it. So I see Chant as kinda like Sleep, good for lower levels but you outgrow it.
     
  2. Jamesworkshop Gems: 3/31
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    I don't think clerics struggle on the low levels, it's just weak goblins at that point and any caster will burn through daily spells in no time at all compared to turn after turn of physical attacks.

    Chant like Tenser's may prevent spell casting but if you already ran out of spells, (typical of clerics or wizards) then using them last doesn't really have any downsides.

    Magic stone isn't really all that different from a lvl 1 wizards Magic Missile since high level scaling isn't in effect this early.

    Command is terrible compared to Sleep; Will resisted, only 1 creature for 1 round only. Sleep is 5 per level with no save possible
    I'd rather memories Bless instead.

    Bane+Doom can -3 an enemy attack rolls, most melee attackers won't have very strong will saves at this point.

    Summon Monster 1, not going to win any records but can be handy since when you no longer need it you need never memorize it again, it costs you nothing since it is not a spell taking up limited Sorcerer picks nor does a Wizard need to buy a scroll for it. At least you don't care if the enemy kills it, the distraction did it's job. Another attacker is okay when low level gameplay has few attack per round from a character anyway.


    Hold person, nothing game breaking but it is only lvl 2 spell for a cleric so usable sooner than wizard.

    Bullstrength, Aid, Chant; +2 damage and more STR, works best for throwing weapons/slings since each dmg buff is doubled by Rapid Shot (2apr over 1apr) and the ranged nature helps cover the movement penalty drawback.

    Summon monster 2 is the same thing as before, just a stop gap before Animate dead, it's free so might as well make use of it now.


    Some cleric spells can be arcane spells too but i'd rather the cleric used them so arcane users can focus more into Horror, Web, Luck, Mirror Image, Protection from Arrows or Blindness.
    Bullstrength is lvl 2 for clerics and mages but mages get Cat's grace also so it'd be a pain to expect the wizard to be doing both.

    Prayer gets you to +3 dmg which is like having an extra D6 of dmg when the average of that dice is 3.5, extra handy on ranged weapons that won't get a cheap str booster to add up the damage.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
  3. Jamesworkshop Gems: 3/31
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    Anyone else feel that Sanctuary always gets overlooked when it is basically an otiluke resilient sphere except you can still move about and end it at any time by taking an offensive action rather than being stuck until the duration ends.

    Reminds me of necklace of missiles, forgotten but stores 300 dice worth of dmg in a 30 foot radius in a single item.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
  4. gibberishh Gems: 14/31
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    Nope, not forgotten about Sanctuary or the Necklace of Missiles. Use them quite regularly in fact. My initial argument was only limited to good offensive spells. Yes, there ARE some. But there are really bad ones too. Can't pick 2-3 good ones to claim that "a cleric gets decent offensive spells."

    Yes, clerics have their role in a party. In fact, they are quite vital in a balanced party and I'm not dismissing them. As the previous few posts illustrate, the more useful spells are buffs and not offensive spells. Again, some of this depends on your temple, some of it depends on the specific game, some of it on your alignment, some of it even on your personal gaming style. I'm speaking in general terms here.

    If I'm going into a particularly difficult battle, I precast Prayer and Recitation, so I count them as buffs and not debuffs. Okay, that's a fault of my own gameplay, but I'd rather have one more body dishing out damage (or taking some damage) while my arcanists do their setup work. If I'm setting up a killzone where creatures will be stuck, then I cast them within monster range.

    I've never thought of using Chant that way. Thanks, I'll try it out when going into non-humanoid areas. For humanoids I prefer Hold Person.

    --------------------------------------

    Neither am I claiming that clerics struggle at low levels. However, this statement:
    appears to equate clerics and arcanists. I'm just pointing out the differences between the spell choices of the two, which are more related to their intended roles in a party. Clerics are meant to primarily be healers + they call upon their deities for (personal) favors. That's their role. So the spells they get are more aligned to buffing (self or party) and healing. Arcanists get all the brimstone and fire to perform a different role in a party.

    I'll go as far as to say that if I had to solo any of the Infinity Engine games which are meant for parties, I think a cleric would be one of my top choices.
     
  5. Jamesworkshop Gems: 3/31
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    so just skipping the point of which i elaborated just below in the same post, hell i've talked about it twice now to give it an even fuller explanation


    look at it another way, say i reach 5th spells, my Sorcerer can pick just one of them while my cleric instantly gains the full list of 5th spells. spell for spell wouldn't even make sence in this context when wiz/sorc have exactly the same spells and differ in how they learn them.

    so i'm still going to stand by it
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  6. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    That has been one thing that has baffled me since the days of the Gold Box games.
    Why people think it's better to precast Prayer instead of casting it where it not only buffs your party, but debuffs the enemy. Doing it in combat doubles the power of the spell. If you lead with Prayer your other spells have a +1 penalty to saving throws meaning they have a better chance to work or do full damage.
    Yet I see all kinds of advice for the Gold Box games, Dark Sun games, Infinity Engine games, Pool of Radiance:Ruins of Myth Dranor, and Temple of Elemental Evil to cast Prayer before the fight.
    Heck, even the official "Getting Started" card (at least the Apple II version) for Curse of the Azure Bonds had this advice.
    Note that other spells that don't have the offensive component of Prayer such as "Bless" or "Protection from Evil 10' Radius" I will happily cast before combat, it's just ones where I lose half the potency like Prayer that I hesitate to cast it on.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2023
  7. gibberishh Gems: 14/31
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    I did point it out as a fault. Also, if a party has at least two arcanists, you have sufficient rounds to throw out spells like Malison or Emotion if lower saving throws is your goal. -2 on saving throws each and shorter casting times than Prayer or Recitation. Prayer + Recitation = 6 + 7 = 13 casting time. Emotion Despair or Malison, though only available at level 4, each have casting time of 4.

    * A Priest of Oghma might be able to cast Malison. A Priest of Bane might be able to cast Emotion Despair.

    For some battles I prefer to precast Prayer and Recitation because:
    • My aforementioned fear of someone in the party getting owned and the cleric having to restore their mind or HP. If I cast Prayer, that's just the first round so it's okay. But if someone gets owned, I won't have time to cast Recitation because the cleric will be busy with more important matters. I prefer my cleric to go into melee, keeping their rounds open to cast restorative spells.
    • Arcane spells are much faster to cast. This is especially relevant if there is more than one arcanist in the party. Before you are able to finish casting both Prayer and Recitation (-3 penalty), 3-4 arcane spells will have finished casting. Depending on what you cast, -3 may still be useful (e.g., web) or it may not (e.g., fireball).
      • However, in this case I prefer casting Emotion Despair if I have access to it (it's L4 and Prayer is L3). Just as an example, Web casting time is 2 and Emotion casting time is 4. Both will finish casting before Prayer even takes effect, not to mention the subsequent waiting time for Recitation. Fireball casting time is 3. Of course, this example only works with 2 arcanists. With just one arcanist, you have to wait for the round to finish before you can cast the next spell, but it's still better than casting both cleric spells.
    • Let's say some creature is on the edge of saving against web. Let's say my Prayer + Recitation would knock it over the edge and cause them to fail. By the time my spells finish casting, they will already have traversed the web AoE and started attacking my frontliners, making their lower saving throws useful only against the creatures left behind. In this scenario I'd rather have the cleric up front with my tank to provide an extra body. Sure, the lower attack and damage would also be useful to my frontliners, but again, Emotion Despair does the same with a lower casting time -- as long as there are enough arcanists at L4 in the party to throw around such spells.
    • If casting Prayer, you are using only 1 round so the next round is open for other things. If using Recitation, you creep into the second round with the casting time of 7. So if you need to cast a restorative spell immediately, you're handicapped for an additional round.
    In summation, this goes back to my earlier exposition about diviners having much longer casting times for about half the benefits than their arcane counterparts. And again, this is not to dismiss or diminish the usefulness of clerics. But their long casting times do lure me into precasting their spells.

    * Disclaimer: I have not read any of the 'advice' you have referred to. Above is purely a word salad of what's going on in my brain.
     
  8. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    It's just some stuff I've picked up over the last 30-some years of gaming (and now I'm starting to feel old since I realize it's been over 32 years since I got Curse of the Azure Bonds for Christmas). Aside from the "Getting Started" card that came with Curse of the Azure Bonds, some of it was from talking to school mates back in grade school before there was an internet (technically there was in the form of Usenet and e-mail, possibly Gopher or FTP, just no World Wide Web). The rest was stuff I picked up on various FAQs, forums, and talk about various AD&D games.

    Anyways, this is the first time I saw the advice to cast Prayer before a fight was with my very first encounter with Dungeons and Dragons:
    Yes, I'm aware that Pool of Radiance came out before Azure Bonds. I got Pool AFTER getting Azure Bonds for Christmas. I wouldn't get Champions of Krynn for at least another year, and I would lament that Secret of the Silver Blades and Dark Queen of Krynn were never ported to the Apple II[gs] as I wouldn't get a new computer until 1997. I would eventually be given the "Forgotten Realms Silver Edition" and get to play them, but that wouldn't be until the 21st century, about 10 years after they were released.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2022
  9. Jamesworkshop Gems: 3/31
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    I actually like to see lots of enemy archers as I can just plain ignore their damage with protection from arrows, works like stoneskin except it doesn't break after absorbing 150 dmg, 10 minutes for every caster level duration.
     
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  10. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    That's assuming they target the right character, sometimes they target one of the five NOT protected by that single-target spell.
    A single archer can also be blinded which renders him ineffective, but they usually come in packs.
     
  11. Jamesworkshop Gems: 3/31
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    it's a level 2 spell 10m/caster level I could always strech it to more but it's not really that tough when the first person foward becomes the target.
    Same thing later on with divine shell, becoming immune to even 100 archers is better than trying to keep them blinded.

    sometimes i'll even chuck it on party summons to give them an extra edge on opponents.

    even works in HOF as the global boost in enemy stats isn't adding any of that higher strength into damage dealt.

    the best source of blindness is 10f radius level 8 spell, not really comparable to a spell lasting multiple fights.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2023
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  12. Jamesworkshop Gems: 3/31
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    If you want to get cheeky the mooncalf shield just gives you flat 10/- missile resistance so it properly stacks with protection from arrows for a double bonus

    A high level Barbarian would have 17 missile and 7 pierce/bludgeoning resist.
    Prot from arrows on top and you get 34 resistance to arrows
    bands of the master is 39 resist without the need for spells

    Wouldn't make Barbarian meta but its interesting to count it all up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2023
  13. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    I believe that is a HoF-only item. In normal mode you only get Tabard's Shield, which only gives +1 vs missile weapons.
     
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