BGT or BG1TUTU?

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@ Proteus: this used to be the original version of BGT (660mb). However, it's now a WeiDU mod, meaning it has less than 20mb in size. You will need a full install of BG1 + TotSC, however.

Those comments about BGT "continuity" make me curious... I didn't manage to finish the BG1 part of it yet and I'm curious to whether it pays off or not. Specially regarding NPC transition. I read a ton of threads about it but I still have questions.

 

Really? Great.

Previously I thought I would only go for BG1Tutu solely for size reasons, but 20Mb makes BGT a much more attractive option.

Incidently, what was in it that made it so big?
Was it the Big Picture mod?

 

Okay.

The task of linking BG1 and BG2 together "continuously" is a far, far bigger one than BGT undertakes. Sure, you finish BG1 and your PC is transported into Irenicus' dungeon, but I don't feel that this truly justifies the claim of a continuous game.
The transition feels forced: it doesn't allow you to keep all your party members as you might expect, and plot flaws remain unresolved (we all know the threads of inconsistencies between BG1 and ToB). All in all, it's fairly evident--inevitably--that they're linking together two games which weren't designed to be so.
Based on this, I much prefer BG1 and BG2 to stand alone with their excellent stories than to try and mash them together with an awkward bridging section. BGT is an admirable effort indeed, but the work that'd truly be needed to justify a claim of "continuity" is, I would argue, far more immense. If your criteria for transition is simply connection, and you want to feel good about playing one big game rather than two small ones, then BGT can certainly offer that. However, if you're looking for something to bridge the saga into a contained, epic tale, then I don't think it's the direction to take.

It was packaging all of BG1's resources in the mod. Area art and sounds in particular made this extremely hefty. It has now been reworked to adopt a more Tutu-style procedure.

 

Having never actually played BG1 before, I want an experience that is authentic (ie no spells that arent supposed to be there), but allows continuation into BG2.

Of course I realize that vanilla BG1 and Bg2 can do this by importing a character, but the new mods are too good to refuse.

So, either I use BG1Tutu, and switch midway, or use BGT and never switch. correct? the only other thing I'm concerned about are bugs and compatibility with other mods. looking at the available fixpacks, its amazing how many bugs there were in BG2.

Oh, will someone please recommend small mods for me to use in BGT/Tutu.

At the moment I want to use the BG2 fix pack, BGT tweak pack, BG2 quest pack, P&P celestials fix,unfinished business for BG2, tougher 4. I have baldurdash, has that been incorporated into the fixpack now?

 

The BG2 Fixpack passed Baldurdash in terms of fixes back around Alpha 3 or 4. Being as that was six versions ago and beta 3 was released today...

 

Grey Clan Episode One is quest mod. If you aren't an experienced player, you will need a strong party for it though, it's quite tough.

 

So basically BaldurDash is obsolete because all fixes in BaldurDash are already in B2 Fixpack? Ie no need for baldurdash at all anymore?

Its somewhat amazing that when I first played BG2 it was with unpatched Soa. I didnt notice any bugs, heck at that stage I didnt understand what something like 5d6 meant, or THAC0. I used my mages explicitly to cast offensive spells, I didnt even use Breach and Lower Resistance much. My how things have changed. Oh what I meant to say is that its amazing that all these bugs were found and fixed, I take my hat off to those involved.

I'll probably try BGT as soon as I get BG1.

 

It depends on your preference.
First of all, it's a common misbelief that Baldurdash is not developed any longer. Baldurdash-WeiDU is still actively supported and maintained, so it's not obsolete. However, if you decide to use BG2 Fixpack, you can't install Baldurdash. If you go with Baldurdash, you can't install BG2 Fixpack.
The main difference between them is that BG2 Fixpack adds lots of additional things compared to BD-WeiDU, but it does not interpret the definition of "fix" too strictly even in its Core component. (Though its authors don't admit this, and try to "prove" its opposite in various ways.) So it's up to you, if you prefer balance to tweaks, Baldurdash 1.6 (must be installed directly after ToB final patch as the first mod!) can be your choice. If you want more novelties and you are happy with the high number of minor, arbitrary changes, use Fixpack. Also, BG2 Fixpack is updated more often than Baldurdash.

[ September 19, 2006, 16:30: Message edited by: Baronius ]

 

So all the bug fixes in Baldurdash will also be contained in BG2 Fixes. But BaldurDash is more concerned with balance and keeping things as the developers intended while BG2 Fixes adds things from the ease of use mod such as true grand mastery and multi class grandmastery. Which some people (including myself) adore, but I can understand some would think it is heresy.

okay I think I get it, thanks for the reply.

 

No, Baronius is just misrepresenting the Fixpack.

The Fixpack was developed with a strict methodology and an entire team against which to vet fixes. Developer intent was and remains the strongest criteria for inclusion. Complete documentation of fixes is available, and all of our fixes are discussed completely openly in our forums--there's no hidden workrooms, our processes are completely open, and we invite challenges to what we've changed. The Fixpack is a cross-community project, featuring modders from at least six different communities.

In comparison, BD-WeiDU includes a quest as part of its "strict fixes". The original author of BD-WeiDU has also abandoned the mod to assist Fixpack instead, leaving a new, solitary author to maintain it. The latest version of BD-WeiDU is also incompatible with a wide range of mods (i.e. pretty much any variant of the Big Picture). True and mutl-class grandmastery changes are not a part of Fixpack as the developers have stated unequivocably that the current implementation is intentional. (BD-WeiDU offers a tweak to change this, I believe.)

I'd invite you to compare the two and make up your own mind.

[ September 19, 2006, 18:41: Message edited by: CamDawg ]

 

Alright, I will.

That is not incorrect, though your description of it is. Dwarves in 2e have a maximum DEX of 17 without any penalty, and it's already in the requirement file rather than the adjustment file. They also have a maximum CHA of 17 before the racial penalty, leading to a maximum of 16. Likewise, halflings have a maximum WIS requirement of 17, without any adjustment. I would suggest at least one member of your team invest in a 2e PHB or find someone who has one, to avoid such mistakes in the future.

I sincerely hope this is optional. The reason being that there are more HLAs for F/M/Ts than there are slots on the HLA screen. When I used this, I found to my dismay that one of my favorite HLAs, Greater Deathblow, had been removed to make way for things like Alchemy. Also, I think everyone would appreciate you documenting which ones were neccessarily omitted, so that they can make an educated choice on whether or not to install this component.

No complaint on this one, just pointing out a typo for you to fix.

While I can't speak to the other errors, I'm surprised you didn't deal with the most obvious one. Namely, the problem that arises when changing alignments on the G/E scale, typically after taking an evil path in Hell (or when using Revised Hell Trials). I would think it'd be a simple fix to add further condition branches in the three dialogue files to check for all alignments instead of just checking on the L/C axis like familiar dialogues currently do.

He's a sword? Again, just noting something you probably want to fix on the doc page.

In addition to the items listed above, there were a few things you reported that I have never had happen in my game, but I'll leave those as likely being SoA problems fixed by ToB which you are including for SoA-only players. Also, a few things seem like unnecessary tidying, since they weren't affecting the game, but...whatever. Not to mention a couple of purely cosmetic changes that I would disagree with.

OTOH, I can't find a BD-WeiDU page for comparison. The original BD site is still up, but it cites a much earlier version than the v1.6 that the BD-WeiDU forum speaks of. This isn't like you, Baronius, what's up?

 

Lets not turn this into a BD vs Fix Pack thread. For one thing there is nothing to be gained from people insulting other peoples mods.

Can I use the unfinished business mods with BGT? If so, how? Just install them?

 

And yeah, we're off-topic, I just wanted to respond to a few points brought up. I encourage anyone who wished to continue the discussion in the Fixpack forums if you're interested.

@Fel
BG2 breaks with P&P in many places, and is 'house rules' 2e at best (i.e. the grandmastery issue is an excellent example of such). The correction comes per the descriptions of dwarves and halflings in the game, not P&P.

The unique HLA triple-class tables fix is the same one as BD and does not exceed the limit of 24. Nothing was omitted, the table is simply extended--F/M/T use the F/T table in a patched, unmodded game, F/M/C use F/C. In both cases we just add the mage 'extra spell slot' HLAs to the end of the table. It's a good point that it should be documented better, and I'll revise the docs to be more explicit for the next release.

The familiar is an excellent point, I'll get that addressed.

@Proteus_za
Please, pick whichever one with which you're comfortable. I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions--my apologies if it came out as if I'm attacking BDW.

edit: Sorry Tal! I was writing this while you posted.

 

Well, I think everything was told that was needed to be told, the facts speak for themselves, so the question was answered I think. Felinoid's thoughts were good examples to clarify what I mean. But no more details here -- it's not the subject of this thread.
Though I hope you don't mind it Tal, I'll not start a new thread to answer a single question directed to me by Fel.

BD-WeiDU is not my mod. It seems that the readme is displayed when you run the setup, it's not a big download. I think the maintainer is away at the moment.

 

I must admit its not an easy decision to make. I cant tell which is more bug free, and seeing as both are definitely going to contain bugs, the question is which is likely to provide the best experience. And the most compatibility with the mods I want to install (which arent anything major, just BG2 fixpack and tweak pack, level 50 tables, one or two other things).

I might go with BGT at this point, not sure.

 

Disclaimer: I've worked on both projects. I put together the last of the gigantic BGT installers way back in the day before jumping ship and working on Tutu.

To be honest, they're becoming very similar projects. It used to be very clear-cut that Tutu was a better project by miles (active support, smaller size, faster install, no graphical loss due to compression, more mods available, better installer, etc., etc.) but the newer versions of BGT-WeiDU have really reduced or removed the advantages of Tutu. Mod-wise, Tutu retains a slight advantage in that many mods are developed primarily for Tutu and then made BGT-compatible after the fact, so you tend to see newer projects for Tutu first.

In short, I would never have recommended BGT in the past but it's now matured into a stable and fair project. I still think Tutu has an edge but I'm also in the same camp as Sim--that edge is based in large part upon not seeing any benefits to linking the games together, certainly not in the fashion that BGT does it.

That's a long-winded way of saying "yes, both are (now) good choices though I still prefer Tutu."

 

I like the idea of one gigantic game, but as I said, after you've played BG1 for 50+ hours, spending 10 minutes starting a new BG2 game is painless.

I might go with BGTutu because separation is not always a bad thing.

 

If you do go with Tutu, make sure it's EasyTutu. Standard Tutu coopts the BG2 resources, making it impossible to play BG2 without uninstalling Tutu first (though they have workarounds for it like multiple BG2 installations, and may even have fixed it, for all I know), but EasyTutu just copies the files it needs, meaning that you could even switch back and forth between playing EasyTutu and BG2 without changing so much as a disc. It even leaves your original BG1 installation untouched as well, meaning that all three options are open if you want, and you could even uninstall any that you don't want without screwing up either of the other games.

If you don't know where to get EasyTutu...um...well, either PM Macready (the evil mastermind behind the new installation method) or search the ToB forum for EasyTutu (try subject-only to eliminate all the simple references).

 

http://www.pocketplane.net/tutu/ is the place for (Easy)Tutu. It's also listed on http://modlist.pocketplane.net (and probably the SP mods section) for future reference.