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Attributes discussion thread

Discussion in 'Dragon Age: Origins' started by Caradhras, Jun 21, 2010.

  1. Rahkir

    Rahkir Cogito, ergo doleo

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    If you could flank to get auto-crits then yes, stealth would outclass the stuns. But for me, I could almost 'always' flank with Alistair tanking. When I'm not flanking, I stun and then they die before the stun wears off. With crits; you can't go flank to get crits, you can only stealth or rely on luck. The ten second cooldown is your only hope of a crit every ten seconds (without lots of luck and outside of very long cooldown abilities).

    Backstabs on the other hand, can almost always be preformed with just a little maneuvering. Plus a rogues strongest area, imo, is single target dps. When you lose that vs. bosses, you're not fulfilling your primary goal. In addition to being able to be used more (situational, it is, yes, but not as situational as crits, and definitely not 'luck' based), back stabs will always do more damage for rogues/assassin rogues. With momentum and such it is not hard to backstab two or three times in very rapid sucession; you can not do that with crits unless you use a cooldown which is very long. Stealth gets you one hit at most, once you get into a position to backstab, the chances are you'll get off 5+ before you can stealth for another insta-crit. And if 5+ backstabs don't kill anything other than a boss, I'll be surprised. ^_^

    At least with my party; Alistair and my mage duo morrigan/wynne both played greatly onto backstabs, more so than they would crits. For crits, you have death hex. For backstabs, you have paralyze, mass paralyze, a tank to hold them in place so you can get behind them, warrior stuns, etc. ^_^

    Though my funnest party probably included Oghren and Shale...
     
  2. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    Stealth also works on aggro and it allows a Rogue to be ignored by enemies thus making flanking much easier to pull off.

    What I am saying is that critical hits don't necessarily depend on luck. Death Hex, Pinpoint Strike and Stealth are three different ways to get a critical hit without relying on critical chance.

    And that is without taking into account backstabs of course.

    It seems to me to be a bit beside the point to criticize Stealth for its cooldown as 10s is really short as far as cooldowns are concerned (the reason why I listed a few other cooldowns).

    I'm not discussing the DPS element here, I'm just pointing out that to say that critical hits are necessarily random is misleading (to say the least). It seems to me that you're obsessing over the DPS stuff and seem oblivious to the rest. DPS is not the only yardstick for success as far as builds are concerned. I'm not advocating a low DPS build either, just the simple fact that Stealth is an alternative and that not using it doesn't make sense when Stealth is part and parcel of backstabbing as it lowers aggro and allows to flank enemies and work perfectly well with other Rogue tricks.

    You seem to agree with me that backstabs are not random but you insist on saying that critical hits are random or situational... That is something that I can't understand when it's quite clear that Death Hex, Pinpoint Strike and Stealth ensure that any successful hit will be a critical hit... And if you maintain that having to use an ability makes it "situational" then everything in game ends up being situational (so why even bother).

    It seems to me that you are acknowledging that Stealth is an alternative. Of course, it goes without saying that Stealth allows a backstab in melee (let's not get distracted on the subject of stuns allowing to land several attacks by the way, I know that, it is not the point I'm trying to make).

    You may not like Death Hex or the Duelist specialization but Death Hex and Pinpoint Strike are other alternatives for non random critical hits.

    Critical hits don't necessarily depend on critical chance. It is not always random and it doesn't make sense to dismiss these options because you consider them to be situational when they are not more situational than say backstabs resulting from stuns.

    And I'm not making a case that critical hits are better than backstabs either... That would be preposterous, unless if the Rogue is affected by Misdirection Hex of course.

    I'm argumenting on a point, not a DPS build or something relating to the difference between critical hits and backstabs, and my point is that critical hits are not necessarily random or luck dependent (nor do they depend on the situation as much as you seem to imply).

    If your Rogue fires a bow while in Stealth you know that when your character will hit it is going to be a critical hit. That is not random. It doesn't depend on a cartload of factors to work, it can be reiterated and it will work in the same way.
     
  3. Rahkir

    Rahkir Cogito, ergo doleo

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    First off, let me clarify that all of my arguments thus far have been based on dual wield or melee rogues. Using stealth to gain critical hits with archers is definitely a bonus, as backstabs are not an option in this case.

    Stealth is definitely a very useful tool; I was never trying to argue that point. Stealth can be used for many things, and enhances a rogue's abilities. I would never say stealth is useless or should be ignored. I am, however, stating that relying on stealth for crits is more hassle then it is worth, because backstabs are better, and can be more easily executed.

    You are right, 'technically' you can get critical hits non-randomly. I will give you that point. However, the gap between being able to do this in a substantial quantity is large. Meaning, between all that time you can only get one non-random crit per ten seconds. I do like the duelist class, it is a very interesting class which really plays on the strengths of certain rogues. If I was ever planning to make a dex based rogue who had insane defense and attack rating, duelist would be right up my alley; and there would definitely be times where I'd use pinpoint strikes (but only when I cannot backstab).

    I'm looking at this from a pure dps stand point because, the way I look at it, (for dual wield characters) why bother working toward crits when it is, in my opinion, easier to work toward backstabs which do more damage. I was comparing backstabs and crits; two choices for one scenario.

    I will concede my point and agree, saying "crits are completely random 100% of the time," is positively false. What I should have said is that the majority of the time, the majortiy of crits will be random unless you take long breaks inbetween combat sessions. Death hex and pinpoint striking are very nice; however, even if you are critting this way, you will be doing less damage than backstabbing, as I think we both admit.

    I think we're both basically at the same point; what I said was just not clear. Crits are great for archers, stealth is great utility, but backstabs will always trump crits in melee. There are ways to assure multiple crits in a row, but they are far apart; which is why I was saying they are, majorly, random unless you use a very long cooldown. Cooldowns are not required to assure successive 100% chance backstabs. Cooldowns are required to assure single or multiple 100% chance crits. Basically, my statement should have gone, "Crits are more random than backstabs."

    Honestly, while the high-dex abilities in awakening look interesting, none of them truly warrant the loss of damage from main attributes, to me. The aoe backstab looks amazingly cool! But mages can aoe groups just as well; where as if I keep my rogue a cunning backstab build; he will assuredly do more single target dps than they could ever hope to. ^^ However; if unending flurry attacks at a faster speed than dual momentum daggers AND allows backstabs, then I would definitely put dex up for it; I'll have to look into it; or perhaps you know the details, Cara?
     
  4. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    I never argued that backstabs weren't the way to go and I can definitely agree with that last post.

    Unending Flurry is just sick... It can work with Twin Strikes and basically the character keeps hitting the target as long as he's got some stamina left.

    Still it's probably best for a Warrior as a Rogue will benefit more from Flicker and Shadow Striking.
     
  5. Munchkin Blender Gems: 22/31
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    I used Stealth right in front of boss and than backstab. Does the game difficultly determins how successful stealth is for enemies levels? If so, at least in normal you can stealth right in front of an emeny boss with cunning at 40 and 4 levels in steath.
     
  6. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    What matters is the number of ranks regardless of Cunning (which doesn't seem to matter as far as Stealth is concerned).

    As you already know you need Combat Stealth (three ranks) to activate it in combat but some bosses will prevent it from working even at Master Stealth (which is 4 ranks).

    What boss were you fighting MB? I don't think it has anything to do with the difficulty setting (if that's the case it's not documented anywhere).
     
  7. Munchkin Blender Gems: 22/31
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    Uldred in the Mage Tower and the lead Blood Mage in the abandon building in Denerim.
     
  8. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    I'll try to check in my current game when I get there but that doesn't surprise me.

    Where you able to pull this off with Revenants? I know it doesn't work with Revenants (the ones from the vials).
     
  9. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    We were discussing how a PC could 1-shot Gaxkang. I volunteered Spirit Damage and Spellpower items/buffs. You considered these, and still thought them lacking, so I also mentioned the Hexes. Then for some reason you decided to mention Entropic Death, and things went downhill from there.

    No, you do. Make a list of all the spellpower items you can give to your mage in Origins. Now, wear them. Consider your nuke damage before and after wearing said items. Make a table if you wish. I have personally gone through the trouble of doing this, and the damage difference was so laughably small I've ignored +spellpower items from anything except a staff ever since.
    Or, you can just check how mage spells pre-Origins actually scale with spellpower and base your own opinions from there.

    Yes. In a world where whales fly.

    How would you know? You've never even played a nuker mage.
    In case you didn't know, Fireball, a tier 3 spell, is based off 30% of your spellpower. 100 extra spellpower (which is more than what Blessing actually gives, btw) basically gives +30 damage. 1/2 damage of a full nuke, FYI. I can reach 60+ damage with each cone spell.

    How, in the name of all that is holy, did you get a Wynne at level 8?
    Oh yes she can outdamage me. In theory.

    Speak for yourself.

    It's Dual-striking. Let's not confuse that with Dual-weapon Sweep for the moment. Oh yes, brag about speed, of all things. Your build can't use Haste.

    I assume you're not soloing, because on top of the fact that you like using Wynne that's one of the most ridiculous things you've ever said in your defense. Now if only Haste was a single-target spell.
    There are such armors, light armors FYI. Not a problem for a dex-type.
    What are these "easy" ways, pray tell?

    Of course not. Warriors don't get Lethality. Now the problem is, everything ELSE in there (except the rogue-specific Red Jenny Seekers) applies to warriors. Except you swap out backstab for Precise Striking and and +crit mods. You may have to turn off Dual-striking.
    What justification do you have that the rest of these builds do not work on warriors just as well? Because none of the skills/talents you mentioned are str-dependent. And FYI, the rest of the gear mentioned in these builds (in particular, the +critical damage ones) also work for warriors. Bring Leliana, add bard song crit, booyah.

    This, I find odd. Because in practice everything that is hard to kill has a knockback/knockdown/grab ability, which is the whole reason why they are difficult to deal with. The list includes everything with Warcry/Fireball to Revenants and Dragons. Everything else can be killed easily by anything with average DPS.

    It actually does double rune damage. If the runes are not doubling, it means you are missing. :p
    Now there's something for you to consider.

    You don't even know and you're already theorizing? Not surprised.

    As an aside, you did not just give up the dual-weapon skills tree but every skill in the entire warrior tree (including warrior specialization talents) that makes a warrior, a warrior. If that doesn't hurt enough, be prepared. Because that list grows longer in Awakenings. New sustaineds, new core skills... not to mention the new classes and their skill talents.

    BTW, with Unending Flurry your character just stands there, swinging his/her weapons. Not "attacking", as in doing any other animation, just swinging weapons like mad. It is dependent on two other skills that each cost around 50 stamina apiece (one guarantees auto-hit, the other guarantees critical strikes), and itself drains stamina like crazy (around 20 per hit).

    One final thing. Since you actually tried to use your weapon calculations to try and get a message across, let's take a closer inspection at it, shall we?

    Apparently you haven't been as accurate on your calculations as you seem to be about.
    First let's look at the first part of that equation.
    (AVERAGE(W, W * R) + 0.375 * X * Y )
    The first part (bold) unimportant. We're looking at damage done by the same weapon, and the bonus by strength is additive.
    So that's:
    26.25 x 2 (2 weapons) = 52.5, for 70 strength
    18.75 x 2 (2 weapons) = 37.5, for the 50 str.
    That means a 15 point difference in damage per hit, or 7.5 damage per hit with a weapon. That means my 6 points (12 with Dual-striking) is only as accurate as your estimate (18 points, which is also 3 points off).

    Here's where you went wrong:
    I remember mentioning Cailan's Arms instead of his armor. Now we're even.

    The main difference with our builds is that where you'll be focusing on Dual-striking, I won't. That leaves me with using the 7.5 difference in damage per hit (and of course, the ability to actually use skills), and I can ignore the extra from Dual-striking since I won't be using it. There are quite a few +critical damage and +damage items that the warrior can use. Warden Commander and Rose's Thorn come to mind.

    The funny thing is, my build will have better AoEs (simple because I can do more). When it comes to killing that single boss + I have +critical damage items, Haste (to maneuver and get back on my feet quickly) and Death Hex. And of course, my builds can actually use skills that can help keep that Death Hex-casting mage alive.
    With Awakenings, the dynamic changes considerably with the addition of Intensifying Runes.

    Oh, and I decided to test Dual-striking out. I have tried it in the past, and based on what I observed then I remembered it was doing less damage than it should be doing in theory. Then, I noticed something. I did a search, and came up with this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
  10. Rahkir

    Rahkir Cogito, ergo doleo

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    I misunderstood you. However, all the hexes are amazingly useful and I definitely have them on at least one character. I'm not 100% sure if we can one shot Gaxkang on a PC and there is no way to figure out without hands-on testing. I can't find his MP, resistances or health listed anywhere, so I don't know if perhaps someone can look at them in the editor or elsewhere (but I can't find them). If someone does know his MP/HP ranges and resistances, then I could calculate whether or not a mana clash from someone who isn't Wynne could kill him.

    Yes; I've done this before too, and even if it's 'only' 30 damage, as you say, why don't you take it? Why take defensive buffs? My "tactics 101" comment was directed at you saying defensive gear and passives are required for a nuking mage. I've never once used defensive gear or passives on my mage and he made it through the game with no deaths (got the achievement to prove it) on nightmare. So I don't see the point of having defensive passives or gear at all if you use your resources wisely.

    I agree about mage gear; it's sparse, which is why I said there's not even enough to fill up all of one mages gear slots. I've done the calcultions for every spell, with different amounts of spellpower (to see which would be better at beginning, mid and end game) and it makes a pretty nice difference in some spells; specially damage over time spells like storm of the century.

    Now you're just throwing out wild accusations with no grounds. Hiding behind apocryphal evidence does not beget a rational debate. ^_^ My very first character was a full primal mage, and since then I've run through with another mage. (If you don't believe me, look back a few months in the my posting history, and you'll see me talking about my mage and giving spell suggestions based on my original play through)

    By "blessing" I assume you mean Wynne's Vessel of the Spirit? Lets say Wynne is level 24; max possible in Origins. She gets 20+level*2 = 68 spellpower. Not 100 no, but a big boost for free.

    Now I'll delve into specific calculations. I'll put Wynne at level 9. (You can go to the Mage Tower right after Lothering and Wynne joins right away) She'll start with 25 magic at level 9 (based on her level-relative attribute rates on the wiki, gamebanshee and me checking in game). 70 base magic at level 24. At level 24, a pure-magic PC will have 85 base magic. I will add everything I can think of to their spellpower totals for each, 'except' for mutually available bonuses that they can both use which are limited in number. (tomes, etc) Exclusive bonuses (the fade, vessel) will be added to each respective total.
    [-Universal Gear: Lifedrinker (+4spellpower), Destructionist's Belt (+3spellpower), Tevinter Mage Robes (+5spellpower), Helm of Honnleath* (+2magic), Key to the City (+2magic), Final Reason (+10spellpower); Total: 26 spellpower]
    *Easily equipped by both characters; +6 strength can be gotten from items with no strength requirement for Wynne, and the PC gets fade bonuses+strength items. Before you say massive armor gives horrible fatigue for a mage; I'll say that I've never had a problem with MP on my mage, nothing that drinking one Lyrium potion won't fix; once I got to mid game, I didn't even have to drink a potion. With Wynne (and her token), Vessel restores her mana completely and gives her a bonus to mana regen.

    Wynne (Full Magic Wynne); 3/0 PC (3 Magic/0 Willpower per level Human PC); 2/1 PC (2 Magic/1 Willpower per level Human PC)

    Wynne's Spellpower
    Base[((15*3)+25)-10]: 60
    Arcane Mastery: 5
    Shale Aura: 10
    Universal Gear: 26
    Vessel of the Spirit: 68
    Spell Wisp: 5+(0.05*spellpower)
    Spell Might: 10+(0.1*spellpower)
    Static total = 169
    Add only spell wisp [(169)+(5+(0.05*169))] = 182.45
    Add only spell might [(169)+(10+(0.1*169))] = 195.9
    Add both [(182.45)+(10+(0.1*182.45))] = 210.695

    3/0 PC's Spellpower
    Base[((23*3)+5+11)-10]: 75
    Arcane Mastery: 5
    Shale Aura: 10
    Fade Striders: 1
    Universal Gear: 26
    Fade Magic Bonus: 2
    Spell Wisp: 5+(0.05*spellpower)
    Spell Might: 10+(0.1*spellpower)
    Static total = 119
    Add only spell wisp [(119)+(5+(0.05*119))] = 129.95
    Add only spell might [(119)+(10+(0.1*119))] = 140.9
    Add both [(129.95)+(10+(0.1*129.95))] = 152.945

    2/1 PC's Spellpower
    Base[((24*2)+11)-10]: 49
    Arcane Mastery: 5
    Shale Aura: 10
    Fade Striders: 1
    Universal Gear: 26
    Fade Magic Bonus: 2
    Spell Wisp: 5+(0.05*spellpower)
    Spell Might: 10+(0.1*spellpower)
    Static total = 93
    Add only spell wisp [(93)+(5+(0.05*93))] = 102.65
    Add only spell might [(93)+(10+(0.1*93))] = 112.3
    Add both [(112.3)+(10+(0.1*112.3))] = 133.53


    Elemental Resistance

    Elemental resistances are not 'resist or no resist.' They behave for enemies just like they do for the player; i.e. all demons have +50% fire resist, which multiplies your fire spell damage by 0.5 (reduces them by half). Darkspawn have -15% fire damage, which multiplies your fire spell damage by 1.15 (increases them by 15%). This is not true for spells (or parts of spells) which use a physical or mental resistance instead of an elemental, they can fully resisted.
    Affliction and vulnerability hex reduce the resistance that monsters have to elemental damage. Technically, Affliction Hex stacks with itself if you cast it on different monsters (and therefore hit the same monster with it multiple times, once directly and two or more times indirectly), however, that is too far-fetched with a 20 second cooldown unless you rely on other mages. Elemental resistances are hard-capped at -100% (or 2x damage) or +75%

    Vulnerability Hex Formula~(100.0+spellpower)*0.3
    Wynne's Vulnerability Hex
    Resistance: -93.2085%
    3/0 PC's Vulnerability Hex
    Resistance: -75.8835%
    2/1 PC'S Vulnerability Hex
    Resistance: -70.959%

    Affliction Hex Formula~(100+spellpower)*0.2
    Wynne's Affliction Hex
    Resistance: -93.2085%
    3/0 PC's Affliction Hex
    Resistance: -75.8835%
    2/1 PC'S Affliction Hex
    Resistance: -70.959%


    Spell Damage Comparison
    Ideal Condition Assumptions
    +30% elemental damage (E = Damage*1.30)
    Vulnerability Hex + Affliction Hex (V = Damage*2) cast by the Nuker for Single Target Spells
    Affliction Hex (A = Damage*1.932085 or 1.758835 or 1.70959) cast by the Nuker for AoE Spells
    Enemy with 0% resistance to all elemental types

    AoE Spells
    Fireball Formula~(((100+spellpower)*0.3)*E)*A
    Wynne's Fireball (((100+210.869)*0.3)*1.30)*1.932085
    Initial: 117.121939 Over 5 Seconds: 117.121939 Total: 234.243878
    3/0 PC's Fireball (((100+152.945)*0.3)*1.30)*1.758835
    Initial: 86.753261 Over 5 Seconds: 86.753261 Total: 173.506522
    2/1 PC'S Fireball (((100+133.53)*0.3)*1.30)*1.70959
    Initial: 77.851908 Over 5 Seconds: 77.851908 Total: 155.703816

    Flame Blast Formula~(((100+spellpower)*0.34)*E)*A (Cone of Cold has the same damage formula)
    Wynne's Flame Blast (((100+210.869)*0.34)*1.30)*1.932085
    Cone Damage: 265.476397
    3/0 PC's Flame Blast (((100+152.945)*0.34)*1.30)*1.758835
    Cone Damage: 196.640725
    2/1 PC'S Flame Blast (((100+133.53)*0.34)*1.30)*1.70959
    Cone Damage: 176.464324

    Shock Formula~(((100+spellpower)*0.4)*E)*A
    Wynne's Shock (((100+210.869)*0.4)*1.30)*1.932085
    Cone Damage: 312.325173
    3/0 PC's Shock (((100+152.945)*0.4)*1.30)*1.758835
    Cone Damage: 231.34203
    2/1 PC'S Shock (((100+133.53)*0.4)*1.30)*1.70959
    Cone Damage: 207.605087

    Inferno Formula~((40+0.4*spellpower)*E)*A At Intervals 4.0, 30.0 (hits 7.5 times in the code; however in game it seems to hit 15 times for half the damage of the formula, both work out to be the same)
    Wynne's Inferno ((40+0.4*210.869)*1.30)*1.932085
    Interval Damage: 312.325173 Total Damage: 2,342.4388
    3/0 PC's Inferno ((40+0.4*152.945)*1.30)*1.758835
    Interval Damage: 231.34203 Total Damage: 1,735.06523
    2/1 PC'S Inferno ((40+0.4*133.53)*1.30)*1.70959
    Interval Damage: 207.605087 Total Damage: 1,557.03815

    Tempest Formula~(((100+spellpower)*0.1)*E)*A At Intervals 2.0, 30.0 (Blizzard has the same formula, except each interval applies damage over time instead of direct damage and At Intervals 2.05, 30.0; therefore it does ever so slightly less)
    Wynne's Tempest (((100+210.869)*0.1)*1.30)*1.932085
    Interval Damage: 78.0812931 Total Damage: 1,171.2194
    3/0 PC's Tempest (((100+152.945)*0.1)*1.30)*1.758835
    Interval Damage: 57.8355075 Total Damage: 867.532613
    2/1 PC'S Tempest (((100+133.53)*0.1)*1.30)*1.70959
    Interval Damage: 51.9012719 Total Damage: 778.519078

    Storm of the Century Formula~((30+0.3*spellpower)*E)*A At Intervals 2.0, 30.0
    Wynne's SotC ((30+0.3*210.869)*1.30)*1.932085
    Interval Damage: 234.243879 Total Damage: 3,513.65818
    3/0 PC's SotC ((30+0.3*152.945)*1.30)*1.758835
    Interval Damage: 173.506522 Total Damage: 2,602.59783
    2/1 PC'S SotC ((30+0.3*133.53)*1.30)*1.70959
    Interval Damage: 155.703816 Total Damage: 2,335.55724

    Single Target Spells
    Entropic Death Formula~(((200+2.0*spellpower)*E)*V
    Wynne's Entropic Death vs ((200+2.0*210.869)*1.30)*2.0
    Damage: 1,616.5188
    3/0 PC's Entropic Death ((200+2.0*152.945)*1.30)*2.0
    Damage: 1,315.314
    2/1 PC'S Entropic Death ((200+2.0*133.53)*1.30)*2.0
    Damage: 1,214.356

    Mana Clash Formula~(Mana Lost)*((0.5+spellpower*0.01)*E)*V
    Wynne's Mana Clash (Mana Lost)*((0.5+210.695*0.01)*1.30)*1.932085
    Damage: (Mana Lost)*6.54790369
    3/0 PC's Mana Clash (Mana Lost)*((0.5+152.945*0.01)*1.30)*1.758835
    Damage: (Mana Lost)*4.640308
    2/1 PC'S Mana Clash (Mana Lost)*((0.5+133.53*0.01)*1.30)*1.70959
    Damage: (Mana Lost)*4.07889369

    For Scythe,
    No spellpower gear 2/1 mage
    Spellpower: Static Total=67 Spell Wisp=75.35 Both=90.685
    Vulnerability Hex: Resistance: -57.2055%
    Affliction Hex: Resistance: -38.137%
    V= Damage*1.953425; A = Damage*1.38137
    Flame Blast (((100+90.685)*0.34)*1.30)*1.38137
    Cone Damage: 116.42569
    Inferno ((40+0.4*90.685)*1.30)*1.38137
    Interval Damage: 136.9714 Total Damage: 1,027.2855


    You get Wynne at level 8 or possibly lower I assume by not doing lothering; though I wouldn't do this myself. You can get her at 9 after finishing the quests in lothering if you go directly to the mage tower. Yes she can in theory; and yes she can in the game. She does not have mana problems, she can get flame blast the very first time she levels up, which in conjunction with her earth spells will do 'fine' as a nuker for the early levels that you get her. As I already stated, no she will not do as good as a PC with fireball when you first get her, but she 'is' a good nuker if you play her that way, and will eventually surpass a PC in terms of damage and longevity of mana.

    I don't have to 'speak for myself' the numbers speak for me. Dual striking with max speed and passives does much more damage than any dual wield warrior talent in origins. And by reading the awakening talents and formulas, I'd bet money that fully buffed dual striking would do more than unrelenting assault. I already showed earlier that dual striking does more damage than crits.

    I never said anything about dual-striking being dual-weapon sweep. I said dual striking is better than both punisher and dual-weapon sweep.

    I assume you don't understand how attack speed works for melee characters. The Character Attack Speed Modifier begins at 1.0. Haste reduces this number by -0.25, momentum reduces it by -0.3, blood thirst reduces it by -0.15. If this value goes below 0.5 (due to a, possibly intentional, bug in the game) then it loops back to 1.0. Let me take my warrior as an example. Using both momentum and haste he would have a total reduction of -0.55, in theory reducing his modifier to 0.45, but technically increasing his delay between attacks by looping it over. Now, as I said earlier, any dual wielding warrior will use momentum and blood thirst. They add up to a total of -0.45; reducing the attack speed modifier to 0.55; with passives, this is the lowest you can get it without looping over in Origins. (Though blessing of the fade + momentum might reduce it by 0.05 more than momentum + blood thirst... I will have to test this some day when I get awakening) Anyway; how do you presume a warrior to solo with haste? Or are you talking about a mage using haste? And if so, why are you bringing up a mage when I'm taking about momentum and blood thirst?

    Hmm, easy ways to increase stamina: Andruil's Blessing(+2willpower), Helm of Honnleath(+2willpower), the Armor of the Legion(+3willpower) that I praise so much, Key to the City(+2willpower), and The Spell Ward(+5willpower) to name a few. This is 14 willpower, or 70 stamina. More than enough to maintain all the passives that I want to.

    As you probably know, there is a 'helm of the legion' but it is not required for the legion of the dead set bonus, only the gloves, boots and chest are; hence the helm of honnleath is a great substitute (as it is the best helm for any class in the game, really).

    Backstab is THE used formula. Swapping crits in doesn't work because the person who made that thead used all of the rogue's special backstab abilities to beef up the damage; without which the chart would look totally different. As I stated earlier, dual strikes will do more than crits and happen on every hit all the time regardless of cooldowns. Precise striking is not useful unless for avoiding the 0.5 attack speed cap, otherwise, it's pretty meh for any dex/str build, and with bloodthirst you don't need it.

    Rogues get bonus +4 cunning, warriors get +4 bonus strength. Warriors get 0.4 damage per level up, rogues get 0.2 damage per level up. Warriors get heavy armor talents, and powerful, which are better for fighting enemies head on. Warriors get threaten to keep all the enemies right where they want them. Warriors get 6/5 health/stamina per level up. Rogues get 5/4 health/stamina per level up. Are you seeing where I'm going with this?

    Rogues do better damage backstabbing than dual striking; especially with all the bonuses to backstab damage they get from their class. No warrior would use precise striking with dual strikes. Precise striking + crit mods =/= backstabbing. If precise striking made every hit a crit, then yes, maybe. But until precise striking makes every hit a crit, dual-striking will always do more damage.

    Tactics; same tactics you'd use on a rogue or a mage. Paralyze their caster, mana clash him, or charge him first before he fireballs you. Revenants are chopped liver for dual wield warriors; the knock down is only mildly annoying, it is much more of a hassle for mages who get pulled to him and knocked down. With dragons, I use the same tactics as a mage or rogue. Have my tank stand in front, put my melee damagers on the back legs and ranged far away. As long as you don't stand right behind a dragon, they generally won't tail whap or kick you, as long as you have a tank in front. If you have a tank, they'll most likely get bitten and need big heals, but it won't stop your warrior from pounding the dragon into dust. The same reason dual striking does more on weak enemies is why it is good on strong enemies. Consistent, fast, high damage that isn't resisted and rarely misses because of the insanely high attack rating from placing every point into strength.

    Oh you're right you're right! I'm sorry, I was mixed up for a second. Backstabbing with runes never triggers the OH damage runes, only effect runes. Dual-striking does. Apologies ^_^

    Hypothesize, test, analyze, repeat. I have no problem if my hypothesis is wrong; I will simply form a new one and test it until I find the correct one. I simply gave my expectation, and after viewing the new warrior classes and abilities... I am not impressed. I do not understand what you mean by I gave up every skill in the entire warrior tree? I do not believe I ever said or implied that. Nor did I ever give up the dual-weapon skills tree; 36 dex is all I need to use what I want is all I meant by what I said. :confused:

    Edit- looking back on this I don't know if I made it clear why you average W and W*R. The game randomizes your weapon damage. You don't just do '11.90' damage every time. The first part of the equation is not pointless, it is the basis for the accurate damage of a swing.

    We are not looking at damage done by the same weapon, we are looking at damage done by two seperate weapons. One has 11.90 base damage and the other 11.20. Your weapons are added together, but you do not attack twice with the same weapon, and then twice with the other weapon. You attack with both weapons once at the same time.

    You are right, I transposed my 9 with a 6; but that is simply a mistake, not a flaw in logic. The 80 strength model is exactly right; the 60 strength was 3 off because I accidentally switched a 9 with a 6. Even down to the decimals on the 50 build. But the difference would still be 15; not 6 or 12. It is not 7.5 separately, it is 15; because dual strike attacks at the 'same' speed as single weapon swings. It is 15 in the time that you would do 7.5, and then 15 again on your next 7.5 swing, and so on. The gap only gets bigger as gear progresses and you get more strength/runes/etc.

    Next time I make an error like that, a slip of the mind and write a 6 instead of a 9 or accidentally put my decimal place one spot over; a simple "Hey, I think you switched a 6 and a 9 around there." The formula worked fine; it added the damage of both weapons together into one attack (which is what dual-striking does). Regardless; before you call out my logic and say that it is false or wrong, realize that most theorycrafting is never 100% right on the first attempt. There are little mistakes which get fixed to better refine the formula. Mine wasn't even a mistake in formulaic equation. Thank you for letting me know I had a slip of the brain in that first equation ~.^ I will go change it after I post this.

    If I ever mix something up in a formula again, please feel free to tell me, I always read over them twice and double check, but sometimes things slip by. (It is just a post on a forum anyway, I don't want to put too much time into reading and re-reading everything.) ^_^

    Edit to respond to your edit- Hmm, I've never noticed that bug on my warrior. Those posts are 7 months old; it could have been fixed, I'll have to do some testing soon. My warrior seems to hit with every dual strike swing. If it has been fixed, then everyone in that forum pretty much agrees with my consensus that dual striking is flat out OP and does more damage than most things in the game.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
  11. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    What a waste of time.

    Reread my post, please. Saying "Yes; I've done this before too" before suddenly saying saying "even if it's 'only' 30 damage" makes about as much sense as... something.

    Actually it's more of the on lines of "is this guy serious?" and "he doesn't even really read my posts, does he?"

    Fine.

    How very generous of you to try and prove that with Spell Might and Spell Wisp, Wynne does ~60 more damage. And with Affliction and Vulnerability Hex, no less. Bravo. Now if only by the time you finish casting all three spells, the PC will not have done this (for the sake of simplicity, I'll use the base formulas):

    Fireball + Shock + Cone of Cold
    (100+spellpower)*0.3 + (100+spellpower)*0.4 + (100+spellpower)*0.34, spellpower = 153
    =75.9 + 86.02 + 101.2
    =263.12 total damage, +shattering. Your Wynne's Fireball only does the same amount of damage on the main target, sadly. Interestingly, after following that up Flame Blast and using one other spell (Group Heal) the entire chain should have finished cooldown.

    That, my dear man, is what is called "practical" application, since you'd have to be really... hmm... to just stand there casting hexes when you could have killed them outright given the same amount of time. Now, the problem with doing this with Wynne is that 1) she will not very likely survive the aggro that results, having little to no defensive spells left after taking that crash course in forced nuking; 2) she will likely kill the tank as well, since she doesn't have Force Field and 3) she will have little to no spell points left for everything else if you do try and give her Fireball + the Cone spells.
    Based on my calculations, she will have 8 points left after taking Fireball + the cone spells. Taking Mana Clash gives leaves her with 4. The game should be finished by this time, but let's assume you managed to get her to 25. Spell Wisp leaves 3. Spell Mastery leaves you with zero. If you give her all 4 spell tomes that gives you the Hexes.
    The PC, however, gets 3 more spells (1 from The Joining, 1 from Landsmeet and 1 from the Desire Demon): Inferno, Blizzard and Tempest->Storm of the Century and Inferno (your DoT calculations are moot by this point, your Wynne can't take any more spells). The PC doesn't need Rejuvenate, Regeneration Heroic Offense and Heroic Aura so that means he has 4 more spells on top of that.
    I think at this point it should be unanimous. PC wins (woot!).

    You just lost your money.

    I'm assuming you don't know how Haste works. It's AoE. As in +party DPS. If you're willing to lower party DPS in favor of your warrior, there's something very wrong with what you're trying to do. I'd accept it if it was a Rogue who had a warrior and mages to look after him, but a warrior? Good lord, man.

    Armor of the Legion? Anduril? Key to the City and Spellward? I said easy. This is a late game set. Fine.
    Passives, yes.

    Your own explanations imply it. You won't be using any of the dual-wielding skills because you can't use them. By implication you are also abandoning all the other active skills the warrior class has to offer. Sure you can give up a sustained or two... making you on par with my willpower warrior, possibly less effective, even. And he will still have more stamina.

    Why don't you just do as I suggested and not come up with a complicated/unneeded explanation for once? You might find that you'll get the same answer.

    You mentioned evidence yourself. I'm pretty sure you'll have noticed if the damage is doubled.
    And it's not a bug, it's intended. Look at the lower posts.
     
  12. Rahkir

    Rahkir Cogito, ergo doleo

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    Alright, I'm going to end the majority of our discussion here because there are a few disagreements that we don't seem to be able to get straight.

    You say mages need defensive buffs or they else they instantly die I'm saying I've played the game on nightmare with two mages who have used no defensive buffs and have never died once (while just straight up nuking). Which means either you think I'm flat out lying or you're ignoring what I've said for the sake of the argument.

    Your unfounded accusation about me never playing a nuker mage (which was never said or even implied) is because... 'I' don't read your posts?

    You don't give 'level' grounds for comparison. I am trying to give both sides fair and level comparison with all the same options. Comparing a PC casting three damage spells to Wynne casting one is 'not' level comparison, no matter how you spin it.

    Duh Wynne is going to do less if she casts two hexes and then a fireball compared to a PC casting three damage spells. You'll also note that I 'only' cast affliction hex for aoe spells, not both. If Wynne cast the same three damage spells as the PC, she would do more, easily. The reason I preformed ideal condition formulas is because they carry down into all situations. Wynne does not really need cone of cold or blizzard does she? Cone of cold does the same damage as flame burst, but less than shock. If things survive a flame blast, a shock and a fireball, she'd cast inferno first, and then proceed. Shattering is nice, but not needed. Her spells are not limited; she'd have all the primal spells she needs to nuke after 4-6 levels (without tomes), the rest are just icing on the cake.

    We seem to have a disagreement about practicality. I think Wynne is practical to use, you think she is only usable in theory. I've never said my formulas are be-all-end-all. I simply used them to prove that Wynne does more damage with a single spell, and the effect of the spellpower gear in the game. (Which as you can see has quite the effect.) I 'also' wrote about how practical Wynne is in terms of mana regen(vessel: full mp and +4 mp regen) and getting the spells she needs to be a good nuker early. Even without tomes, and if you give her tomes (if you don't play a mage that plathrough, and if you're making Wynne a nuker, I'd assume you weren't) then it only gets easier.

    Practicality in regards to party vs PC. I try to make my character as powerful as possible. This benefits the party and makes everything die fast. Giving your PC extra killing power and having a balanced party don't have to be mutually exclusive; especially if your three companions play a passive buffing roll. If I ever used a party of three warriors and a mage; haste I would use. Haste, useful, yes. But only if you don't have a speed capped warrior already and three mages or a speed capped warrior two mages and Leliana with a bow. You can't try to tell me that hasting Leliana with a bow does more damage than extra attack speed on a dual wielding warrior PC of any style. Yes, in the end, it is "only 0.05" faster attacking; but there sure seems to be a lot of "it's only x more" coming from your side.

    Activated abilities vs. passive abilities. I think full passives and auto attacks are better. You think activated abilities with some passives are better. We're going back and forth whether dual striking or activated abilities are better. I would calculate the exact damage of each against various numbers and amounts of target, against bosses and against 0 armor, but I'm sure you would simply pass off all that work and say "Try again but without the complicated formulas."

    In response to your last comment (to show why I think this is not a flaw); Georg Zoeller said that your to-hit modifiers are significantly decreased, he said nothing about auto misses. Perhaps, because I went full strength (have the highest +attack possible), bard song and have heroic offense on me always, I have a high enough attack rating to overcome the barriers of dual striking? Because I assure you, 1/3rd of my attacks don't miss, and I can fraps it for you if you don't believe me.

    To expand upon dual striking, the damage from each individual weapon is NOT doubled as I think you are saying. That is not how dual-striking works or how it shows in game. If you attack with a weapon that does 0 damage and a weapon that does 5 damage, you're going to do 5 damage (the game will show it as 0 and 5). If you attack with a weapon that does 18 damage and a weapon that does 7, you're going to do 25 damage (the game will show it was 18 and 7). If you attack with a weapon that does 7 damage and a weapon that does 7 damage, only 'then' will you do 14 damage (the game will show it as 7 and 7). In the game lets say your weapons do 48 and 52 damage. When you swing with dual striking this shows a "48" and a "52" in the game, but it is effectively applied at the same time and therefore equates to 100 damage, even though the game still shows 48 and 52.

    So first swing of the dual wielder is 48, first swing of the dual striker is 100(48+52). Second swing; 52 and 100(48+52). Third swing; 48 and 100(48+52). Etc, so on and so forth. Anyway; I think we can at least both agree that we won't be agreeing on who is a better mage, warrior or rogue any time soon. :D
     
  13. Munchkin Blender Gems: 22/31
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    Yes with a cunning score of 30+ and the 4th level in steath. I never checked to see if my PC did have backstab damage.
     
  14. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    There is a difference between a nuker and someone who simply has nukes. Especially when the latter starts thinking that he/she can outdamage the former.
    Its obvious that you don't respect enough the content of my posts. You never acknowledge them as I do your "results". You simply think they are wrong, and you've been trying to disprove them since page 1. On the other hand I actually do acknowledge your results. Which is why I've been using them against you.

    This statement alone should speak volumes. You conjure complicated formulas and "rational" arguments and try to pass them off as automatically applicable in practice.
    The things is, the PC will always be higher level than Wynne. The PC will always have more nukes than Wynne, and Wynne will always be a subpar nuker. These are the practical conditions that you somehow take for granted, because you believe that all your formulas will somehow make them go away.

    That's because I base my observations on what I see in practice. I've made "pure" str builds, "pure" dex builds, etc. I grew tired of them, and decided to start planning builds that actually delivered easy gameplay rather than just promised it in paper.
    It was in the course of over 10x playthroughs worth of testing that I learned that it actually takes much more than just 20 odd attribute points to "make or break" a character.

    Actually, I merely simplified your formulas for you. I prefer dealing with simplified calculations rather than deal with the complicated ones you seem to love.
    The funny thing is, both amount to the same thing. If you can prove that they do not, you might as well be saying that "1x1x1x1x1x1x1" is not equal to "1x1".

    Actually the term used was "significantly lower ability modifiers". A poster also commented that he was missing with every 3rd attack even with 140 attack.
    Perhaps.

    Yes, I'm aware of this. My comment was based on your earlier post, which implied that you didn't know whether rune damage was doubled or not. So either you're not paying enough attention to your characters, or you're simply over-relying on theory again.

    As Georg explained, Dual-striking doesn't essentially double your attack damage. Bioware has enough sense not to make a tier 1 skill that does just that. More so if they've checked it out recently and fixed its glitched animation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
  15. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    It depends on the build. If you don't have any way of regaining Stamina then Willpower may be worth it. I'm convinced it sucks big time to invest too much into it though.

    I've played the game since it was released and I rarely found situations in which I needed more stamina provided my characters had the right gear or talents like Death Blow or Feast of the Fallen.

    What it boils down to is playing style and timing. Increasing Willpower early on won't make a build any better because your character won't have many talents to use anyway. Later on when you think that you won't benefit from more damage you could consider dishing a few points in it -I know I won't.

    Items that give extra attribute points and the fade bonus just make it easier to "optimize" a build without being extra careful. The game is easy enough to be finished without a perfectly built character even on nightmare.

    The more I think about it and the more I'm convinced Willpower is the worst attribute to invest into (after Magic for Warriors and Rogues). Constitution is slightly better and Cunning is only useful for higher skill ranks (unless playing a Rogue).
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2010
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    At lower levels the difference between a soon to be +x willpower build over some other is insignificant, it's at mid-high levels that these really start to diverge. Even if you started investing in willpower from the onset. You don't have much extra points if you plan on meeting armor/talent requirements asap, only around 1 extra point per level up or so. Sometimes every other level.

    Well, be that as it may.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
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    Willpower should not be taken for any class other than a mage because you are wasting attribute points in an attribute that will have limited potential in impacting the game or character play; however, as someone who plays mages regularly I find it important and sometimes very useful to have the extra mana pool available.

    To me it makes perfect sense to have 100-200 extra mana points from Willpower or through the skill tree you find in DA Awakening. However, an extra 100 in DAO can make a difference.

    Mages live or die by their spells. The damage output from a spell is dependent on the caster’s total spell power and their foe. The damage difference from a mage’s magic attribute being 40 and 50 though is not great enough to validate the extra 10 points in magic; however, the extra 10 points in Willpower will give the mage 50 more mana points which can be used to cast another spell. The extra spell can cause more damage than the 10 extra magic attribute points.

    I understand that some duration AOE spells due greatly benefit from a higher magic attribute score but the damage difference is between 1-10 points if that. I personally would rather have the extra mana to cast more spells without the need for a potion. Also, there is a chance that when the mage does go for that potion that one second could be his/her life or would allow the enemies an opportunity to surround the mage and put him/her in danger of being attacked.
     
  18. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    I'd disagree.
    Sword and Shielders will find that extra stamina useful, giving them more uses of Taunt/Disengage/Shield Bash/stuns/etc. When all your party members are capable of dealing significant damage and drawing aggro, it helps when your S&S tank has more means of crowd control.
    Two-handers are by nature skill spammers, they are at their best when skill weaving (normal attack->Pommel Strike to cut down on recovery->normal attack->Sunder Armors to cut on down recovery, etc).
    Dual-weapon users rely on sustaineds, and they are basically left with little to no stamina after activating their skills. The focus of this argument, a dual-wielding warrior using Warden Commander's, is only left with 10-60 stamina after activating his sustaineds. That's equivalent to just 1 Taunt and 1 Disengage. No Frightening Appearance/Devour/Whirlwind/Dual-weapon Sweep/War Cary/Holy Smite/etc.
    Archer skills are actually pretty useful when you have the stamina to use them. Archer skills are more party-oriented, Shattering Shot for example basically improves every warrior/rogue's damage by +10-20 per hit against heavily armored opponents. Suppressing Fire/Crippling Shot improves your S&S warrior's tanking ability. Note that unlike skills from other weapon disciplines, many archer skills do not require physical/mental checks. All you need to do is hit with them. Archers are also sustained-intensive, in particular the Rogue Ranger.

    Now let's look at the bigger picture, from a party perspective. DPS is a trivial thing if everyone in your party is capable of dishing out at the very least a decent amount. I believe in carrying around at least 1 or 2 "pure" stat DPS characters, simply because there are setups that allow such characters to be "pure" and yet remain versatile at the same time. The Shapeshifter/Spirit Healer, for example. Or simply a Two-hander with Haste and a supply of swift potions (little need for skill weaving). Bulk DPS covered that leaves 2-3 characters who must also help with the crowd control/dps/support/utility. You will understand the need for them to be able to use their skills properly.
    While most usually deal with this by simply assigning a mage to handle most of their support/disabling needs, my philosophy regarding mages is that they are capable of the best DPS in the game. Why would you reduce them to using mostly support/disables when they can simply kill their enemies outright? Support/disable mage out. Now you understand why the remaining 2-3 members of my party have varying degrees of willpower. We outkill our enemies, and since my party has no set disabler/support character all of them have utility/support/disable options. A dead enemy is obviously no threat to anyone. In my party fast killing speed is a necessity, so you can be sure I take great care in determining whether someone is doing enough DPS or not. Why is why I know 20 points in willpower is hardly enough to affect total DPS. Far from it. There are risks, yes, but these become negligible over time, once you know how to deal with potential hazards. There are skills/spells which help minimize such risks in the first place, usually obscure ones like Dispel Magic (removes hexes, Weakness, freezing, fire, Curse of Mortality, Crushing Prison, Disorient, Paralysis, sustaineds, Regenerate, enemy buffs, etc) and Spell Shield (prevents the caster from contracting any of the aforementioned effects).
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2010
  19. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    Mages are better off drinking potions so unless you don't want them to use lyrium potions Willpower is really not that necessary...

    Regarding Warriors and Willpower, a Warrior doesn't need Willpower once he or she gets Deathblow. Simply put, the amount of Stamina Deathblow gives back is a lot higher than the number of Stamina that investing in Willpower would have yielded. Having Deathblow makes it redundant.

    The same thing could be said about Rogues and Feast of the Fallen. What does a dual wielding Rogue really need? Momentum. The rest (Whirlwind, Punisher) is unimportant (and probably a waste of talents for a backstabber). Momentum + backstabs is the way to go. Using other abilities shouldn't be a problem with Feast of the Fallen. Rogue Archers suck big time because they can't benefit from Feast of the Fallen and for that very reason they could probably use some Willpower (whereas a Warrior Archer has Deathblow and more stamina to begin with so no real need to invest into Willpower).

    There is one good thing about increasing Willpower instead of another stat like Strength, Magic or Dexterity: it makes fights last a little longer as your characters do less damage and thus they have more opportunities to use talents. :p
    Most of us hate it when the enemy dies before characters even have a chance of using that very special talent that drains Stamina like crazy or alternatively when the fight is over and the Stamina reserve is still full. :shake:

    In any case, if you decide to put points into Willpower I think Scythesong is correct about the 20 points amount. Putting less than 20 is a really bad idea as it will hurt the build without bringing enough Stamina points to compensate for the loss.
     
  20. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    Willpower on mages who focus less on nuking is practical (eg one of the other 2-3 members of my party). Magic's effect on lyrium potions is close to negligible in Origins. Meanwhile mages with a 100 or so extra mana actually have an advantage when it comes to lyrium potion spam. The main mage (nuker-heavy, PC) obviously doesn't need willpower.

    Deathblow + points in willpower complement each other, not work against each other. And Deathblow/Feast of the Fallen are useless when you barely have any stamina to use any skills in the first place (see above build). A pure damage rogue would count as a pure DPS character. A poor choice unless it's the PC.

    I doubt there are fights that trivial, and if there are, it's a wonder why we're even discussing them. Cone of Cold + skill spam and the fight is finished. If you can somehow notice the effect of less than 20 str/dex/magic on a fight, congratulations. I'm personally not keen enough to notice the effect, despite all my testing.
     
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