Attack on Falluja gets under way

@DMC: Just so you know, calling the Quran a thousand year old book...its pretty offensive dude. And its not to make sure the men stay on top. Of course, it will seem that way to me, because I actually follow what the Quran says, and not try to modify it to suit the 21st century.

There's tons and tons of problems with the 21st century itself, (astronomical divorce rates anyone? Maybe drug abuse? Teen pregnancies?) so please don't imply that the Quran is just a thousand year old chauvinistic device...its extremely offensive. Not to mention, if you've read the Quran, you'd know that what is in practice today is an extremely harsh interpretation of the Quran, where the meaning is skewed to serve the purposes of extreme societies like the Taliban and the diktat of countries like Saudi Arabia....seriously, I'd like to see you tell my mum she's oppressed... .

I realise this post is off topic as well, but I really had to reply to that post, because I found it very offensive...

 

dmc, I am not sure if you were ironic but offering a muslim beer is quite offending in general as they dont touch any kind of alcohol.

Otherwise so are muslims just as crazy as other religionists and their book of chaos just as irrelevent as the Torah or the bible for enlightened people.

 

It is ironic. A religious person looks at the so called "enlightened people" and sees a fool.

 

The world seems to hate Americans until they need money....

America has given billions of dollars to help people around the world and has never gotten a cp back in return. Even when Andrew came through and destroyed most of Florida, or September 11th, there was very little help from the rest of the world. Yet, America is expected to give aid to all other countries when a disaster occurs.

Go ahead and hate America. For the next disaster you will still get aid. Just as America is going to fund the rebuilding of Iraq -- without much help from the rest of the world....

 

Here I though the majority of the comments were about hating America and the things we do...and then having others defend such positions.

 

Welcome to the Alley

 

"If you break it, you own it," Colin Powell warned his neocon cronies. Don't cry about having to rebuild Iraq at this point.

 

Oops...I led another astray -- I'm not crying about it, I think rebuilding Falluja is the right thing to do ESPECIALLY if we were responsible for the destruction.

The destruction of homes, mosques, schools, etc. is against rules of engagement -- unfortunately, those structures are sometimes hard to correctly identify when A LOT of lead and fragments are incoming.

#1 Rule of Combat: Bullets have the right-of-way.

(there...did I get back "on topic" -- I even mentioned Falluja...)

 

"You actually believe this dribble? What is "Iraqi freedom"? The Iraqi people haven't been free for a long damn time. Now all of a sudden they're fighting to protect it? Conspire? You make it sound they're doing something in secret. Secretly what? Secretly introducing democracy? Isn't much of a secret. "
iraqi freedom is what these people are fighting for, and what the rest of the iraqi people are not - what the hell do you know about freedom? youve never had to fight for it! when your fighting for your beliefs against those who threaten your homes, family and way of life then you can dictate what freedom actually is, nor you or I can decide that, these people decide for themselves. until then why cant you respect people who against the might of a vastly superior foe still fight for their country, their religion, their right to not be ruled by a foreign power.
in world war 2 we called the french resistence freedom fighters and heros - the nazi's called them terrorists, and the nazi's did exactly what the americans are doing now to hunt them down - now who's climbing down a moral ladder?

and yeah, i think it is right for the US to pay to rebuild iraq - you blew it up! if the attack was a joint UN effort then you can expect the world to pay for it, but dont expect others to clean up your mess when youve so openly defied their wishes.
and you want to talk about people wanting money off you, how about paying off some of your $7,448,045,244,048.16 national debt, the US borrows approximately $1.61 billion per day off foreign countries- that btw means that the population of the US owes $25,264.21 each. so dont talk down other countries for their need to borrow money.

 

Don't hold back now, tell us how you really feel...

A couple of very good points there. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist -- that's the way of the world. I have a great deal of respect for those people fighting for the homes, but not everyone in Falluja falls into that category. There are/were a significant number of insurgents operating out of Falluja who just wanted to fight. Some of these were the lunatics beheading people -- the US even found houses they operated out of. I'm actually rather happy the US went after those radical, and irreputable groups (I just wish they could have caused less collateral damage in the process).

A few people in America are aware of our debt, but as a whole everyone is not very interested in that issue (unfortunately). But, as a country we do make payments and repay our depts -- there is a difference between "borrow" and "take without giving back."

I seem to recall another country involved from the beginning...the name Blair sounds familiar.

[ November 15, 2004, 21:20: Message edited by: T2Bruno ]

 

Not a very good argument since there are a significant amount of American soldiers who rape 14-year old children and molest prisoners.

As for the money giving part. Europe does not really need American money anymore and it ain't exactly a custom for rich states to give money to other rich states which are completely able to handle the crisis themselves. US has not to my knowledge really donated significant amounts of money to European states since the Marshall plan and even then the donation was in the best intrests of America.

If you are talking of third world countries then you are helping them to fight against famine, war or other disasters which they themselves really do not have the resources to do themselves.

 

Really, now, there's been no proof for that outrageous story. The Abu Ghraib thing, however, was an insignificant rather than significant number of soldiers. Perhaps this was the word you meant to use?

On another note - the people of Iraq, in great part, want American soldiers to stay. I know and am in contact with three soldiers who were there, one currently on active duty in Baghdad (if I recall correctly) and the other two on leave, and they've told me multiple stories about how thankful the Iraqi people were on seeing the American troops arrive. It's a miniscule minority who actively oppose the presence of the soldiers, and they're decreasing rapidly, due to the explosive nature of their tactics...

 

I'm going to let the absurdity of this statement speak for itself.

 

Slightly inflammatory statement there Morgoroth.... Generalizing a whole people based on the (unconfirmed) actions of a few criminals is not fair. If we had soldiers raping young girls they WILL be punished -- in America we find such conduct offensive. We tend to lock those folks up and throw away the key (we've even been accused of being overly harsh on criminals)....

I just don't put much faith in the accuracy of the news (especially news originating in countries siding with or even supplying the insurgents).

 

"There are/were a significant number of insurgents operating out of Falluja who just wanted to fight."
there are a great deal of american soldiers who join the millitary because they are just out for a fight:

quote from T2Bruno from another thread:

"I heard a great story once when I was in the Navy. Two American sailors were in a bar in London. Being proud, American sailors they were wearing their Crackerjack's (the popcorn treat was named after the uniform, the picture on the box is fairly accurate -- dixie cap, big scarf, and a shirt with a big flap in the back).

Most ornamental items on a uniform have historic significance, so one of the Brit's in the bar asked, "What are the two stars on that flap for?"

"That would be for the two times we kicked British ASS!"

I was told the fight was rather enjoyable."

yeah, thats something to respect in the millitary isnt it.

and one little thing im also going to pick up:

"Not a very good argument since there are a significant amount of American soldiers who rape 14-year old children and molest prisoners.

I'm going to let the absurdity of this statement speak for itself. "

why is it so absurd? there's a great number of paedophiles living in the US, is it so absurd to believe that there are some in the forces? who use the fact that they cannot be resisted as their weapon to fulfil their cravings?
i wouldnt put it doen as absurd, everything is possible - problem is if there really were any evidence that soldiers had committed these crimes the public would probably never know about it, ive knew a soldier who i served with in columbia who was indited for an offence with a young boy, and all of the precedings took place behind closed doors because it simply would have been too much of an embaressment for it to get out.

 

Hmmm... you may take my story out of context if you wish, but still do not judge an entire people on the criminal acts of a few. That is not fair, it would be easy to dig up horrific criminal incidents from any country.

 

Indeed the statement I made was as absurd as the statement about a significant number of Iraqis who fight without a cause just to kill or cut off the heads of Americans. Both numbers are insignificant. I doubt the majority or even a significant amount of the rebels in Iraq are going to desecrate the bodies of their victims. Now I'm not sure about the rape of the 14-year old but it would really not surprise me if it were true.

I seriously doubt that the troops you know in Iraq have a very good picture about the entire conflict. I doubt they know the amount of resistance fighters and I doubt they have made serious polls about how many really want Americans to stay in Iraq.

The problem here is that the majority of war crimes are never found out about. Most often the government does not even bother to investigate these issues and the cases that come to our knowledge are often digged up by the media.