Are Morrowind / Oblivion CRPG or Action/Adventure games

Remove all ads!

I was just wondering what people think, because it seems to me people now consider such games RPGs and therefore the oldschool RPGs are slowly dying.
I am not putting down any game versus any other.
But in my mind, Morrowind / Oblivion do not qualify as CRPG because they are both based on reflexes rather than strategy. Think traditional CRPG combat systems (BG, etc...), more turn-based and strategic versus Morrowind/Oblivion systems more Zelda-like. I think this is even more pronounced in Oblivion, where you click you hit versus Morrowind where the skill level still influences a bit how ofetn you hit or not.
I'm not saying any game is better or less fun, I'm just saying it seems to me that nowadays the Oblivion-type games have becom a reference in terms of roleplaying games, which kind of indicates that the traditional more slow paced CRPGs are a dying breed.
Well, that's just my opinion, but what do I know eh?
This said, I find Oblivion and Morrowind to be a lot of fun, although they don't quench my CRPG game thirst (for that I always need to pop on good ol BG2 or the likes).
Just wondering if others felt the same way or disagree with the fact Morrowind / Oblivion are closer to action games like Zelda than CRPGS like Bladur's gate, ultima, etcc...

 

I agree with Edmond Dantes. I guess it depends on your definition of Role Playing. Morrowind I do manage to role play but Oblivion is hard. In Oblivion you can be a goody goody Paladin and a blood thirsty pschycopath all in the same game. Other than playing different races and a bit of conflict between the thieves guild and the mage guild there aren't any restrictions as to what you can do. Oh, if you have KotN activated you have to have no infamy to complete it. But again you have no choice you have to be good. Choices are very limited in Oblivion.

 

Hi Nakia,

When I mean Role-Playing Game, I guess I mean several things:

- of course, the ability to role play your character according to certain principles, class, etc... Here Morrowind and Oblivion aren't as bad as any other game, and the "i can go where I want" adds to the whole experience => with some imagination, you can actually role play pretty well (probably truer in morrowind), although the lack of having a party forces you in a way to become a mage / fighter / thief type of character.

- the ability to elaborate complex and different battle strategies: here Morrowind and Oblivion, because of their Action based combat / magic system fall short, it's basically a click fest. Thus is especially true in Morrowind, in Oblivion at least you can factor in blocking couterattacking, but here again, it has more to do with the skill of the player rather than the skill of the character, which is contrary to RPG principles. Technically, in Oblivion, with a low security score you could pick a Master lock if you're good a the lock pick game, you can, with bad personality and awful speechcraft skills augment disposition, which is not very loyal to RPG principles.

==> Basically what I'm saying is that when a game depends to much on player skill versus the skill of its characters, then you lose RPG side. Also, in games that are action based versus turn / round based, you lose the combat strategy aspect (where do I place my characters, when do I cast such spell, etc...) that I think is essential in any good CRPG.

 

I agree that Oblivion is not a role playing game. Regarding blocking in Morrowind you can block I think it is based on the character's stats in blocking but my characters do block.

My idea of role playing is first can I choose what race I can play then can choose whether I will be good, selfish, neutral, evil. I prefer to do this by actions as in Arcanum but at least in the BG series I could pick this at character creation. Morrowind does give some limited choice especially in which house you join. As for the personality and lock picking games in Oblivion I hate the personality one and dislike the lock picking one. I get the Key as early as possible which really makes a joke out of it. I don't need skill either as a character or as a player. As for combat most people prefer the combat in Oblivion but there again I find it a joke unless you use player mods to get a variety of enemies. At least in Morrowind there is always the chance you'll meet enemies you can't defeat and you get out as fast as you can or hope you remembered to save before you met up with them.

Oblivion is a fun game to play if you don't think in terms role of playing.

 

this observation apparently comes from your lack of experience with oblivion

the game is only a click fest if you play a melee type character and melee type character ONLY, but it gets A WHOLE LOT more interesting once you go through with a pure mage or a pure stealth character (bow with 1hand melee)

stealth in this game is really well implemented, i've had a whole lot of fun with my stealthy archer, killing people and monsters while they were left totally clueless (in other words, no clicking is needed, only a steady hand and knowledge in alchemy)

pure mage is even more fun, since he's so overpowered, and spell options are practically infinite (no clicking needed as well, you only need good spell combinations to defeat foes easily)

and how is the d20 system from D&D any different? if you roll a 1, it's a critical failure
if you roll a 20, it's a critical hit (or whatever the effect is)

this is pretty well represented in oblivion, even an amateur can sometimes manage to open a master lock

 

Hi Master Leo,

Your post comforts what I was saying, that oblivion and morrowind game mechanics it depends much more on the player's skill than on the actual character skill. Again, I am not saying this is good or this is bad, actually I enjoy Oblivion very much. I'm just saying it's much closer to a game like Zelda than a traditional CPRG like Baldur's Gate for example.
Morrowind (and Oblivion even more so), are more fast paced action games than CPRGs, which is fine. I mean of course there is some strategy in combat, there is strategy even in a game like Doom, but I don't consider it to be a typical CRPG. But you can't compare the combat strategy in Oblivion to Games like Baldur's gate etc... Oblivion is much more reflex based, Baldur's Gate would demand more thinking and coordinating.

Again, I am NOT saying that makes Morrowind or Oblivion lesser games, I play both of these games, and really enjoy them a lot. That's not my point. I am just saying I don't consider them to be CRPGs in the traditional sense. They're a new hybrid breed of pure action with a splash of RPG, which seems like the trend nowadays, and that led me to conclude that there will be less and less "classic" CRPGs in the future.

Just an observation, not a criticism.

 

I can only speak of Morrowind.

I would consider it to be a mix of all 3 styles - RPG, Action and Adventure - but RPG stands out a bit more than the others for the simple fact that you (or the PC) develops skills which can affect your game play.

 

Well, literally, ALL games are 'role-playing' in that the player is taking on the role of his/her 'avatar character' in the game, even if that's simply the quarterback for the Buffalo Bills!

But seriously, I define 'role-playing game' as one in which I take a representative character and nurture and mold it into something of my choosing by improvement of attributes and abilities through earning 'experience' usually rewarded by defeating opponents and/or completing goals.^1

In this sense the Elder Scrolls games are fully eligible for the moniker "RPG".

However, the real-time nature of movement and the implementation of the player's timing and reflexes does make me put these games into a sub-group within role playing: they're "Action RPGs". (having to make a 'WASD claw' is big hint you're playing an action rpg )

By similar criteria, I'd classify 'Gold Box' games like "Pool of Radiance" or "Champions of Krynn" as strategy RPGs, since the combat elements are turn-based and require no limits to time devoted in planning movements or actions.

And then the Infinity Engine games start to straddle these two definitions: there is SIGNIFICANT requirement to plan one's combats carefully, but the real-time manner that combat is played out pulls the games in the direction of that 'action' qualifier, as well...

footnote:
1. but then, if you substitute 'money' for the word 'experience' up there, you can stretch the Papyrus-made racing games into this definition: you race and win, and earn prize money which you use to improve elements of your car which affect your performance on the racetrack.

 

Oblivion was disappointing to me because it was very reflex and clicky. But the fundamental aspects of both games really appeal to me: the ability to just wander around and explore; talk to whomever you want and see what sorts of trouble you can get yourself into.

Oblivion sort of fell flat because Bethesda (allegedly) dumbed-down the AI. The potential was there, though, for the PC to explore and interact with a virtual, AI-run world.

Too many other RPGs, such as NWN2 or the KOTOR games, remind me of Japanese RPGs, i.e. very linear. A story line if forced upon you; henchmen are forced upon you; you sit through long cut-scenes which your character should be completely unaware of, etc. Talk about click-fests; all you do you is sit back and watch a movie until it's time to fight at which point you just start clicking. That's certainly not an RPG.

 

Hi, for me Oblivion is fully role-playing cuz you can incarnate pure fighters, mages, thieves and so on. You can efficiently play pure Invokers or Illusionists or Fighter/Alchemists with poisoned weapons etc. You can mix all that too and many more. There is definitely a lot of space for implementing various role-playing ideas. Elder Scrolls system is more flexible than D&D but the latter is more structured and sophisticated. It's the matter of taste, though I like both.

 

Yigor,

In terms of role-play (as in I play a role), I agree that with imagination, and because you can just roam the world, Morrowind and Oblivion can hit the spot. However, I think because this is a game where it is solo character only, you tend to end up with a Fighter/thief/Mage char most often. This is even truer in Oblivion, where you always manage to cast spells (IIRC in Morrowind tough spells would fail if you hadn't very mage-like stats).
However, where the RPG part falls short is the combat style, where it is more action. Would you consider Zelda an RPG or an action/adventure game? Real time - non-turn based fighting involves much more reflex than strategy (although of course there IS alwasy strategy), which is why I consider Elder Scrolls game to be action/RPG for than strategy/RPG - and this seems to be a trend in the industry, I mean less and less pure strategy old-scholl RPGs. I think this is all market-driven, because of the costs of producing a new game nowadays, you need to follow demand (which is obviously for Oblivion type action / rpg games.). I still hope one day a grandiose turn based RPG will see the day, although I doubt it.

 

Hey Edmond!

Well, Zelda is definitely an adventure game though Sims, for instance, is an RPG! Now BG, NWN, Morrowind and Oblivion are epic RPG with heroic quests and fights. Though in Oblivion you can totally forget about fights, make the Alchemy, sell your potions, invest in stores, gain lotsa money, buy horses and houses. If, by chance, during your trips you encounter any animals, monsters or undead U can appease or repulse them using your Illusionist and Invoker skills. Dats just one more argument to say that Oblivion is a true RPG.

P.S. Btw, an other funny option is to become a true thief and spend the time between Thieves' Guild and Imperial City's jail.

 

Stealth in Oblivion is hilarious. There I am sneaking around with invisible cast. Oops, forgot to recast before it wore out. "Hi, Townguard." Casts invisible "Bye, Townguard" Guard, "Hey, were'd he go? Guess my eyes are playing tricks on me." Rogues rule in Oblivion.

I have a plug-in installed that re-configures the Townguards and Imperial Soldiers. I don't cheat they still have some psychic powers but can't see through walls or clear across the city.

 

you can finish oblivion without killing a single enemy

 

You can finish Morrowind's main quest with only attacking three enemies. (and I think you only actually kill the first two)

 

So, only those games which have auto pause or are turn-based are RPGs in your mind?

It has. It's called Baldur's Gate.

Go look over RPG Codex which has freeware games and an attitude you might appreciate.

 

Morrowind was a roleplaying game, I think. There was a lot of immersion and a lot of choices in what paths you followed. Admittedly, you could have that in an adventure game, too, but the core difference between these two genres is the acquisition of XP anyway. As for action, it's not an action game, though action RPG does fit.

Can't speak about Oblivion, but some things people say here lead me to suspect it might not be overly strict in its adherence to RPG standards, especially when it comes to player skill vs character skill.