American Exceptionalism

Ok, lol, I got carried away on those points I was mocking. I only bring them up because I get very tired of seeing the criticism (there's that word again) of the country conveniently loopholed into "those Americans." It was meant to be sort of a joke, only it sucked.

I had gotten peeved at it when Ragusa said it, then we spoke and I understood where he came from, and well just like clockwork, the next guy in line comes right on up and basically does the same damage over again.

Bear with me if I'm not being clear.

This country is ripped right down the middle on just about everything that's been said on the forum time and time again. The thing that saddens me, is that apparently from an outsiders perspective, we're all in this boat of self-centered ignorance, justifying any and all actions of our somewhat cut-throat goverment simply because we're Americans.

Its not the case.

Ok, I'm going to take one last shot at trying to make you see where I'm coming from:

- My government is in the news every day.

- Virtually every day I really don't like what I'm reading about my government.

- Here we get the criticisms of the government, and I understand, and agree with much of it. Some of it is unfounded, give, take, and on.

- I also read here, that, I, being an American, fit into some group mindset whether I know it or not. So now I have people telling me what I actually think. And that makes me want to scream. That's where I draw the line.

The differentiation needs to be pointed out, its not the U.S. you're complaining about, its one group within the U.S. that happens to be in power now.

I'm just plain tired of the guys in power here (er, U.S. not SP...). They make me sad and extremely angry. I am also tired of people with, "good intentions" who think they're doing me a favor by saying, in a nutshell, "you shouldn't be happy with these guys in power."

Because I'm not, and I'm especially not happy with people assuming otherwise.

 

Sure America does have alot to answer for, but who is going to make them answer?

America is in power people. Thems the boss. Top Dog. Big Cheese. They've got the power so they can do what they want. Frankly people should be happy America is far more humanitarian than they could be.

Sure they've been nasty in the past, but name one country that HASN'T been.

Whenever a country the primary world power they will do things to other countries that people don't like. It comes with the territory. It's how you stay the world power. Just because people think their lives are more important than the lives in the past they think things are different now. Newsflash: they will never be. It's going to happen now and it'll happen in the future when Japan, China, the European Union or whoever is the world power. They'll do nasty things that other people won't like, people will complain, kick up a fuss but generally do nothing about it other than complain.

I'm not trying to justify any of America's actions, I'm simply trying to explain them.

Compare America ancient Rome. Most if not all classical historians believe Rome's ultimate goal was to make the world Rome. They did this generally by conquest or simply walking into countries and building big impressive things.

England once could call 1/4 or 1/3 of the world's land mass its empire.

France wished to remove the iteals of nobility and royalty from Europe.

Germany thought Jews were a blight upon the world and the cause of the economic problems of countries.

What makes these countries similar is that they believed the way they do things is the best way to do things and it was their job to make the world operate the best way - their way.

America believes the best way is Democracy.

 

ArtEChoke, I am glad that you feel that way, but if you do then why are you offended by what has been said? You cannot deny that allthough there are many of you who do not support your government, there must be many more who do, or who simply do not care, or else it would not be in power.

Thus this is the generalisation I make; one cannot talk about a country without making such a thing, and so I am, I am talking about those who are in that situation, if you are not, then why are you offended by what I say? I am not talking about all American people. I am saying that there must be enough who feel this way or the situation would not be how it is.

But this is what I reffered to with mis-placed patriotism, that you (persoanlly) will take a comment upon your country or governmet (who you say you disagree with) as an attack against all Americans, instead of against just those select few in charge who have been spoken of. Or a generalisation on the run of country's attitudes, which are evident as a mainstream process yet obviously not shared by all, as an attack upon all. I would not say such a thing simply becasue I would believe it to be false.

I agree with a lot of what you have said Abomination, save the issue of democray, which I do not think is what America spreads or why it spreads anything. It is true that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and it does not surprise me when any country acts this way. I do not believe this is the way it will always be however, and even now, progress can be seen to have been made. Rome was a good deal more ruthless than America is, and things are steadily improving, if slowly. It is also true that people tend to complain yet do nothing. Not enough people feel the same way, or feel strongly enough, or would be willing to sacrifice their own comfort for the right cause or the good of all, I fear. Small protests do nothing, an entire shift is necessary. This is why I will now say, as I have always said, that the best we can do is refuse to play any part, until such time comes when people are wiling to make such changes for themselves. Of course, by then our influence will no longer be necessary.

I think I discussed this all further, my statements to ArtEchoke that is (and co-incidentally I adressed issues in Abomination's post as well, allthough I had not yet read it), in the thread HE and the war. I will not elaborate further so as not to repeat myself unnecessarily, but I think it is merely a misunderstanding between us.

But I believe I must clarify myself one step further. A cultural or group mindset is a generalisation, yet it is one made solid, it is the thoughts shared by all or many simply because that is what they are surrounded with. Thoughts produce like thoughts, it is hard not be taken into such a wave of group or con-joined thought when so submerged.

This however is a topic for another thread. Suffice it to say one must seperate himself from anything in order to fully understand it, and it is only then that further progress -or even true integration- is ever possible. It is the meaning of our lives.

 

The boards are split up just like the world tends to be split up, at least on this issue. Americans think everyone else is stupid american-bashers and everyone else thinks america is just... stupid. It's a sad generalization, but it exists. I think the biggest thing people don't understand is that there are plenty of people who don't care for US policy or what we're doing to other countries, who actually live in America. And we still love our country too, as much as our detractors would have you think otherwise, because this is the place where we live. But people like me (and there are plenty of us) don't tend to have a voice in this. We're not the die-hard fanatics that the other side tends to be, and we're not willing to scream and yell and fight to prove a cause. Maybe it's because there's no need to do that when we know a cause is right.
To say America is perfect is like saying that your wife is perfect. Nobody's perfect, and though you may love her enough to wish that it were so, you are blinding yourself to the truth and allowing yourself to be happy living a lie. Which is fine, really. That's no one else's business besides your own. But it's when you bring it up at cocktail parties and threaten to beat up your wife's friends, who love her too but know she's not perfect, that's when it becomes something harmful.
So that's the state we in america exist in. I love my country. I love my *country*. I don't love the people running it. I don't feel I truly have a voice in the upper echelons of the government, someone who understands where the people like me are standing. I don't really like hearing my country being derided by others, on here and elsewhere, but I do feel that people like Ragusa have their ideals in the right place... just *loudly*. I just don't want my country to come to represent me. I don't want to be hated for being an american when that term only encompasses a few of our... ostentatious bretheren. I want America to take a shot at being humble for once and start worrying about what's going on here over what's going on in other countries. (Forcefully, I mean. I don't mean general foreign policy, I mea... you know what I mean.)
But the main point here is that there are those of us who are willing to accept criticism because we know it makes us stronger, and who are willing to find the faults in our country because we know that's how much we love it.

 

@Dragon’s Jewel:
One thing that’s pretty evident (to me, anyway) is that, as you say, there are a large number of Americans who feel the same way as you do – generally proud of your country (and rightly so), but not necessarily proud of the people running it, nor of some of its policies. The problem is that, as you imply, Americans who feel as you do often don’t speak up; and I’m not talking about posting on some inconsequential forum read by a couple of dozen people – I’m talking about publicly, and loudly. So the ones who get heard are the loud-mouthed zealots who think that America can do no wrong, and these are therefore the ones who form the basis for foreign perception of the U.S. and its citizens – an impression that you're generally a bunch of flag-waving, obnoxious boors blinded by misguided patriotism. They may be in the minority (or not; I have no idea), but they’re the ones being heard. You have something you’re very proud of – Freedom of Speech; don’t be afraid to exercise it.

 

@Splunge
I agree with you. Completely. People like Micheal Moore make me proud, not necessarily because of all that they say, but because they have the brass cojones to stand up in face of the louder half and proclaim what our leaders want you to think is wrong. And we need more people like that in our government, in our media, walking our streets. Because now, our problem is that we have those people, quite a few of them, but many are disinterested or unwilling to *do* something to change the world we live in. So the few of us that are willing to announce it, to expose the problems we have, to overturn rocks and show the underbelly of our ruling classes, are faced with our biggest issue... the people we're denouncing are our ruling class. It's so easy to paint a picture of us as traitors, flag-burning hippies, people who *don't* love our country. And they sell that view to the american public, and the quiet ones get quieter and the ones on the fence are suddenly more inclined to disagree with us.... damned hippies that we are! We need some truly vocal, intelligent people out there, who aren't afraid of the initial ramifications of presenting an opposing view, to rise up and make us proud!
I just wish I had more of a hope for that actually happening...

 

Just passing through - this makes me think that either the presentation of news abroad is selective or the memory of those watching it is selective. This is just an observation.

I mean, Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Seattle etc. are all cities that passed official condemnations of the war in Iraq. That's pretty public. Millions have marched in protest, and it continues until just recently when there were more marches in D.C. Polling by the BBC showed that 56% wanted UN approval and 59% wanted inspectors to be given more time.

That's pretty loud. Certainly the anti-war protests far outweighed the demonstrations to the contrary.

 

@Laches:

I can't speak for other countries, but in Canada, I don't think presentation of news is selective; heck, a lot of our news comes from the U.S. It's just that, at least recently, any protests, etc. seem to be downplayed. Certainly, the initial protests were covered, but as those disappeared (or at least the coverage disappeared), the foreign perception that the U.S. people show blind support for its government's actions is reinforced.

@Dragon's Jewel:

Well put. It seems to me that the media (especially Fox) is the biggest offender here, since they're the ones most able to sway public opinion.

 

Me thinks there's a huge giantic rift going through that country. With one side having the upper hand and therefore "counts". But really, it seems like a huge trench crossing everything. They somehow struggle inside about what and how the country should be.

 

And this is where so many problems occur. There are many posts and threads in the Alley here about Americans, Middle East, Iran, Syria, Israel, Palestine, Jews, Muslims, India, Pakistan...etc...that have been founded on other than the above quote. If we can't step back and qualify certain things about views and opinions then....

Just imagine if an Iranian posted a reply to some of the comments that come into the Alley about Iran? The post by Eran was very interesting since it seems that the post is by an Israeli about Israel rather than someone who wouldn't know.

How many Palestinians are there here or Afghanis or North Koreans to be able to respond to some of the gross generalisations (unqualified) that are made about them?

We need to make sure that we don't generalise to the point where we become irrational zealots ourselves.

 

You overlook the occasional necessity to become hyperbole to make sure your point becomes clear, even at the risk of people stopping to read when the first word hits their "emergency abort, imcompatible message" button.

You don't need to go to America to grasp the phenomenon of innocence, or of what Grey Magistrate described as forgetful. America is still awfully surprised how a dude like Atta flew aircraft into buildings, killing thousands, for reasons they already had forgotten, if they ever noticed. Other cultures have much longer memories.

Americans are proud on US strength, but completely unaware of its worldwide impact, and that especially applies for American culture, lifestyle and values which are, frankly, incompatibe with other cultures. Great online columnist Spengler brought it to the point when speaking of freedom, American brand. He pointed out that Bush's daughter's sharing of the shower rooms in Yale with men - freedom American style - would make her a prime candidate for an honour killing in a conservative muslim family.
That must suck, it is archaic and probably mysterious and not understandable from an today's western point of view - but face it, it is a reality and common practice all over the middle east. For a conservative muslim, the adoption of freedom American style, is a reason to fight to death as it threatens core values of his culture.

America has big trouble understanding different cultures, because it is a melting pot. Usually, their second generation immigrants no longer speak the language of their ancestors. America is a Borg-esque nation: Prepare to be assimilated!

That is a great feat, and probably the greatest achievement of experiment America - that it is able to integrate people at such a fast rate, and in such quantities. But that also leads to a perception of America being the non-plus-ultra, look at its successes, and the sense of mission to export it to the benighted rest of the world. But the rest of the world also sees the excesses.
Wherever you meet Americans in masses overseas, usually soldiers or well sheperded busloads of tourists, they bring with them little America. It is as if they don't feel safe in an alien world, so they need to reshape it after their image to feel safe and secure.

I once made clear in a chat with BTA what I see as the prime difference between Europe and the US when making business with the Middle East: We happily sell them arms, cars, factories and our products. America does just that, but the US won't be satisfied before the lucky host has also adopted a free marked, western style democracy, Coca Cola, McDonalds and allow the Playboy and Hustler for everyone - freedom American style.

That is, the naive notion that American virtues are always good, just as its lifestyle is good, anywhere anytime - and that everyone who takes offence on that is irrational, and when he gets violent evil.
The innocent idea that Americas values and ideals are always and for anyone good precludes any doubt about it. When we only do good, why is it that we are hated? Under this premise the results of analysis are ... err ... hardly alble to grasp the problems America has got itself into.

[ January 07, 2004, 14:26: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

 

As a born Citizen of the USA I have to say that I can't stand Bush. I don't think the USA is always right but neither is it always wrong. We are naive but we are not stupid. Not all the time anyway. We are naive to be suprised at "American" bashing. We are important and powerful of course we are going to be bashed. We will survive and maybe learn something from it. I think we still have a touch of isolationism (right word?).
If other countries (people) don't like us or what we do just isolate us. Don't buy our products, don't sell to us. We'll catch on fast that there is an awful lot of world out there that is not USA. We are, by the way, 1 of 3 countries in North America. Most of us do love our country and forget that we are a democracy because England had a budding form of democracy which they inherited from the Anglo-Saxons IIRC. We mostly have our roots in Europe. A few years ago I went to France. I was told the French hated us. I got along great, was treated fine and had a ball. I don't speak French and didn't try.

 

My thoughts exactly! Oh, wait, that's the paleo-French in me...

In all seriousness, though, the assimilation works in both directions. America vacuums up cultural, lingual, and social add-ons from all over the globe. Each new immigrant is made more American - and in turn, the rest of America becomes a li'l more like the new immigrant. We have bits of Germany, Japan, England, Zimbabwe, Holland, India, China, Thailand...though not near enough French...

The native thesis plus the immigrant antithesis equals the American synthesis. It's more Hegelian than Marx!

 

Isn't that mass-tourism per se ? As far I know, the Germans invented it and perfected it. It's maybe the German thing, GM said they assimilated. Well, that doesn't mean that the other Europeans didn't manage to copy you well too. Particularly your British twins.

 

Ragusa – I have only a few problems with your underlying theme of “American Exceptionalism.” (other than that I’m not sure it’s really a word). First, America is really saved by the core decency of its people (I think Harry Truman said that). Anyone who has spent any time here has to know that most Americans really are well meaning. It may be a sort of “innocence,” but IMO it is really in our experience and tradition as a people to be not as intrusive as our current political leaders are in the affairs of others. In fact, most Americans loath politics and politicians because they seem to feel that they very rarely get the kind of representatives and representation that they really deserve in the first place. Often they feel that they are choosing between the “lesser of two evils” in the choices they make. One only has to look at the quality of character and achievement of recent politicians to know that this is really the case. Who are the statesmen? Where are the voices of reason in our government? Where are the leaders who move America forward instead of backwards? Even our Constitution is under attack and being dismantled by the current cockroaches that infest our halls of government.

One feels that things are bad when time is spent looking back, perceiving greatness in the past rather than in the present or the future of government and its policies. Now, one can fairly argue that it takes the distance of history to reveal the greatness of its times and people. And what may appear meager today may appear greater in future times, but with that said there is a real difference between myth making and real history, and much of what will be decided will be at the whims of those who would reveal the events and people of our times while seen through the prisms of their own prejudices.

Some detractors of America will say that the poor quality of American leadership is a reflection of its people. Some will find it amusing that an actor can be governor of California, or a wrestler can be governor of Minnesota. But to some of us it proves the desperation of Americans to find an alternative to the current crop of “professional” politicians who have achieved few results in recent years. Those who present themselves as “outsiders” have good success with a large number of the people rather than the “insiders” who have the power already. But those with the power have the ability to hold on to it given the advantage of having it in the first place. There’s a feeling that those with the money are the ones that ultimately rule; that special interest groups have taken government away from the average American. The race for president is as much a race for money as it is for a candidate of quality of character or accomplishment.

A large number of us are bothered by the idea that Shrub is somehow representative of the greatness that is America rather than the exception, a gross deformity. Some of us believe that the “madness of King George” is destroying everything that is good and decent in this country. Without the so called elusive “war on terror” he would have nothing to hang his cowboy hat on, for what else has he accomplished?

Although there are a large number of people who feel this way and the country is very evenly divided – close to a 50/50 split - the representation is more like 90/10 because of the partisanship and radical nature of the current leadership of the majority party in power. Some may be fooled by Shrub, but nevertheless it’s been said that “you can’t fool all the people all the time.”

 

I don't deny the core decency of the American people, that's not my point, it's that they project their notion of innocence on their country and their leaders and their policy.

American Exceptionalism overlooks that policy, and politics, are still made my mortal human beings.

Tell me anything, but not that US politicians are pure and full of american ideals. Look at UN ambassador for the war on terror, Mr. Negroponte (clearly an expert; he was organising the contra terror in Nicaragua - for example bombings of soft targets like schools and hospitals), who was instrumental in telling the US they were threatened by Nicaragua, the commies just one days march away from Texas ... (and best, the US believed it).
Or Cheney who voted against a Free Mandela resolution in congress because the apartheid regime was such a great ally, what made the US label the ANC as a terrorist organisation. Or take Rumsfeld who shook hands with Saddam in knowledge of his atrocities ... and I could go on.

To project the notion of innocence on US foreign policy is a folly.

[ January 09, 2004, 12:37: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

 

I'm not sure I agree with that. Don't confuse the American media with the average American view (if there is such a thing). You are right in that that has been the media message, but a large number of Americans don't share this view. That is what I was referring to by myth making (look at what they tried with the Jessica fiasco). Those with the power and money control a large propaganda machine. That is where I have trust in the core decency of the people to eventually see through what the current regime is attempting. Once, the media had a more critical eye on political events (look at Vietnam). Now Americans get a sanitized view of the war, which is helpful for the regime.

If Shrub and his cronies get another term than the weight of argument will certainly be on your side (unless there is another unforeseen event). The next election may be very bitter. It could be the worst we have had in recent history - maybe since the civil war.