Alley of Lingering Sighs Forum Opens

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@ Spellbound

Well, I do not understand, so explain it to me in simple terms: what is GOOD about Bush and what GOOD he has done? Can't be too hard to name a few to strenghten your argument. PM me if you feel like it.

@ Catbert

How disappointing. Ah, well; sort it out with Taluntain. You need more than blatant flames to dent my confidence. EOD from my behalf in any case.

 

ok Wirhe -- for the last time.... I had said this:

you responded with this:

then you ask me this:

YOU DON'T GET IT!! I'm not saying there is anything good about Bush! I AM NOT A BUSH SUPPORTER! (for the upteenth time). For god's sake -- what I was referring to was your reference of the President giving the orders, "but the people" carrying them out. WHAT PEOPLE???? My friends never did those things; my friends friends never did those things; my parents never did those things. Just because a President orders something -- you lump all a country's people together as carrying the orders out???? It's ludicrous.

And we're actually way off topic in this post -- so, for my part, I'm done. If you can't see the point I'm making, then I failed. I can live with it.

(Sorry Beren -- I was writing while you were posting and didn't see yours until after I finished.)

 

I appreciate what Tal was trying to do. I really do think I understand his intent and motives. Initially I was upset by the name of the forum...as if it insinuated that all American foreign policy created "sighs" within the world...let's not forget the particular American foreign policy in the 80's that gave many of you the freedom to even post on a bulletin board such as this.

I'm not much of a gamer...don't have enough time, but when Tal explained the forum name origin from BG2, I understood. I still have concerns that are simlilar to those voiced by Spellbound. Oddly, I support Bush foreign policy, so I don't have to deal with her own personal dillemma, but I am concerned by the generalizations that a forum such as this could lead to.

"if you post in favor of the US in the AoLS...you are a Bu****e"...whether you are or not...you may just simply be an American who has pride and respect for their country. This somehow reminds me of a time when you were assigned a seat on the bus due to the color of your skin.

My time is limited, but I hope to try to find ways to speak with some intelligence on matters of American foreign policy. I do hope that because they are in such a forum, that my opinion will not
already be known before it is ever stated.

Anyway...thanks for the new forum, I guess.

 

Here are a few observations that might help in this "debate", (but I'm not really sure):

First, most of the Americans on this board get along pretty well - those who like Bush and those of us who despise him. I have to say that I've never had a problem with HS, TGS, BTA, GM (man, I miss debating with Grey), or even Darkwolf, for that matter. I like and respect all these guys and respect their opinions on the issues. During the last few years a few conservatives have come and gone - some of them of their own free will, others, well...not of their choosing. I happen to know that Grey left for reasons other than the fiery debate on AoDA, but for reasons in the RW.

Let me just say this - When I was MIA after the election in November, it was the conservatives on this board who were the most concerned about my absence. And Kitrax's comments aside, it does help to show that SP has become a community of members who have differing views, but can still get along quite well, despite the difference in politics. So something else may be lurking here.

Let's not beat around the bush here (it would be more fun to just beat on him - sorry, could not resist), but the problem is that a lot of Americans resent those from other countries always attacking America, using Bush as the whipping boy, and as just another way to "have at us". George II is not a very good prez, but he's far from being the source of all that is "evil in the world"; there are a lot of tyrants and bullies in the world who are far worse, and compared to most of them Bush is neither of these things. There is an anti-American strain on this board, and I too have felt it. Sorry, if I'm being a bit blunt here.

Second - If one flames, expect to be flamed. So, some thick skin (or armour) would really help here. Americans on this board need a lot of this if they hope to survive the fire. The Alley is not a place for the faint of heart - but that is exactly why it is so much fun.

I'm certainly guilty of flaming King George as our prez, but I try not to attack other members for supporting him (well, maybe once or twice). And no doubt, I'm extremely disappointed that we have another four years of this guy, but, let the debate continue - I'm up for it, if you guys are. And I'm not going anywhere - sorry, Kitrax, I was here before you were, (America) so you may as well just deal with it. But the problem is actually far deeper than just Bush. No matter who we had as prez, or regardless of what America does in the world, some of the same people would find a reason to resent us. But it does not mean that I dislike, or wish to disrespect those who feel this way.

The thing is, these things can never be overcome. But we all come here, to this site, which is a labor of love for Tal and the others who make it a great place for us. The least we can do is show a little respect for what we have here by staying in the framework that has been crafted for us (and this is coming from the guy who can NEVER stay on topic). Somehow this has become more than just another D&D site; at least I think it's more than that.

Catbert - Your point is well made, and taken!

[ January 23, 2005, 05:40: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

 

Let me reiterate a couple of my points and add some new.

First, by presenting criticism of Bush as criticism of the US, one makes the following statement: Bush = US, or at least "Bush stands for the whole of America". Whether one personally agrees with this statement or not, one can't have it any other way.

Second, if on the grounds of being Americans as Bush and his administration is, one tries to shield them in political discussion, one can't really be surprise to receive some of the beating.

In some most extreme cases, such as torturers, people who stick to them just because they are of the same nation, can't expect others to think like "oh, it's perfectly right for you to [fictional example] defend Graner because you are American as he is and we won't take it against you" followed by "well, if you insist, we will hold him partly excused because he's American as you are". Using my humble self as an example: if someone started discussing a Polish criminal, I somehow wouldn't feel attacked by that, nor would I try to shield him with my authority and reputation because of a feeling of community. Nay, I don't have much of a feeling of community with criminals (in the classical sense). An example of that you could see in the Geoghan thread, where we considered a Catholic priest guilty of molesting children. If I displayed some of the attitude which transpires from time to time from posts containing "you hate America" type of accusations, I wonder what the reaction would be. The same people who take offence at Bush criticism despite hating him on their own, would probably use my own arguments against me.

But enough of my humble self. I do hate such generalisations as "all Americans are morons" and I already have bad feelings even about quoting that as an example of something wrong. That kind of accusation is illogical, probably spiteful and possibly hateful.

However, on a logical level, calling all Americans morons because one of them is, belongs to the same genre of generalisations as accusing one of hatred of America because he criticises its administration's policies, or accusing one of hatred of all Americans because he apparently seems to hate one or a couple of them.

To deal with anti-Americanism, I believe that we should take action against it where it really appears, but we similarly need to address unfounded accusations. Not like it bothers me (I have a large level of tolerance for harsh words uttered in heated temper), but this is the only logical way.

Had it not been for e.g. Poland being sold to Stalin in Yalta, there wouldn't have been any need for any help in the 80's. The Western Europe was itself threatened by Soviet expansion and a Soviet Europe wouldn't have been in America's best interest, especially along with a Soviet Asia and large parts of Latin America and Africa.

Granted, but there are two basic differences. None of those despots rules land the size of whole Europe, and none of them claims to be on a world-wide crusade against evil and terror.

That's quite possible, but that's how it is. The larger you are, the more natural enemies you have. The more active you are, the more enemies you make. The more arbitrary decisions you make, the more disappointed people there are. The more exceptionalism, the less tolerant and lenient the rest of the world is going to be.

The more people are accused of anti-Americanism for voicing criticism, the more of them actually acquire that sort of attitude... Sorry, perhaps this wasn't nice of me to say, but it's still a point. If you (a plural and general "you") call someone enemy, there is a chance he will take up the mantle.

 

No one expects that, chev. But on the other hand, it is wrong to assume that if an American agrees with the criticism and finds Graner guilty, it IS NOT an assumption that he or she shares that guilt -- or should be made to share it. That was part of my point -- Again, I AGREE with the Bush criticisms found on this site -- on the other hand Bush DOES NOT equal all Americans, and when snide comments are made beyond the "political", that's when the problems occur. Even pro-Bush SPers shouldn't be made to feel like they're substandard, just because a group of people may perceive that the "US" collectively has fallen by the wayside and failed to sustain whatever its reputation in the world was perceived to be -- and want to hold individual pro-Bushers accountable for it.

Point is....speaking for myself here....the criticisms are seen everywhere -- all over the internet, on every site, in most chatrooms....frankly, everywhere we go. Some people may come to SP to get away from all that, to find a safe haven in which to escape....but no....lo and behold, they find it here too. It's just been too much and many Americans have become overly sensitized to it. It's like rubbing an open wound with sandpaper, repeatedly. The wound is now a raw, bloody thing and the owners of it are now lashing out and yelling for it to stop.

 

and

I am very sorry to hear (read) you say that. Like most of us here, I found SP while playing Baldur's Gate 2 and needing some help. However, I would have stayed at the 'reading only' status - but I found that I quite enjoyed and wanted to contribute to the discussions that were going on in the then 'whatnots' forum (since moved to the two alleys). Unlike most forums the discussions here rarely (or never) descended into flame wars and name calling, mostly thanks to the very good job the administrators were doing. On the other hand, it provided a place to hear wildly differing views.

Granted, passions sometimes ran a little high, and everyone seems to have a few things that will push their buttons (mine is creationism but that's another story). For a lot of US SP-ers, whether they be Bush voters or not, it is the perceived anti-americanism. I don't know about others, but for me at least, SP has had a positive influence - I have become more aware of how hurtful such generalised comments can be (especially since i would be very pissed off if people referred to me as a war criminal just because a president of Serbia was) I am much more careful of what I write about the US nowadays then when I first started posting.

My point I guess is this: even though discussion of political issues can become quite passionate and even provoke strong negative feelings, I think it can also serve a positive role and it would be a pity to see them banned.

 

I think perhaps attitudes have changed a bit since the election.

Prior to it, those outside of the U.S. that opposed Bush had an attitude of “Well, the U.S. got suckered into electing that moron, but come November, they’ll set things right, because Bush does not represent America’s beliefs.” But lo and behold, the election comes, and Bush is re-elected. So now some people look at the U.S. and say “Hmm, maybe we had America wrong all along; Americans do support what Bush is doing, and so Americans are just as bad as him.”

What is forgotten in all this is that Bush didn’t exactly win a landslide in popular support, and my personal opinion is that many who voted for him just couldn’t bring themselves to support Kerry; if the Democrats had been able to present a half-decent candidate, I’d like to think Bush would have been toast.

I also suspect that those Americans who didn’t support Bush are a bit embarrassed that he was re-elected, and are feeling perhaps somewhat overly-sensitive that criticisms levelled against American policy are criticisms against them.

I’m not really sure what point I’m trying to make here (as usual), but I guess if there’s one thing I’d like to suggest to everyone is this – if you’re knocking Bush, make sure you’re clearly knocking him, and not Americans in general; none of this “all Americans are morons” crap (which, besides being against forum rules, is just blatantly unfair). And if you’re one of those “embarrassed” Americans, please don’t see generalisations where none exist.

And no matter who you are – lighten up, play some BG2, and stop taking things that you can’t change so seriously.

 

@ Splunge

No, I didn't say that; I simply stated that it is easy to judge them as that -then I mentioned I was/am prejudiced, so I thought it was clear enough that that phrase should be taken with a grain of salt.

Sheesh, so much head banging of a few phrases. Touchy subject allright.

 

Well, I liked the idea of the new forum, for what that's worth. America, like all countries, has a great deal to be proud of and equally a great deal to be ashamed of, but while those factors are interesting and valid topics for discussion, it gets tiring that so many people seem to want to turn *every single subject* into either America-bashing or pro-American nationalistic tripe. There are posters here who could turn a thread about buttered toast into a "how Americans are ruining the world" thread (or, an "Americans are the greatest people on earth" thread, although it seems there has been a lot fewer of that type of poster here lately). Maybe if they know that would cause the thread to be dumped into a whole 'nother forum it would give them pause.

 

dmc -- It continues even AFTER they've been warned and cautioned by the mods -- at least that's what I see. Look at the AoLS -- ONE day of operation and a warning has already been given by Beren. Will it stop? In my opinion -- no....and it's only getting worse.

There's plenty of topics to discuss besides politics, with a variety of different issues to be discussed and stands to be taken -- that are fun and informative too.

 

Agreed. The Grand Canyon and Manhattan are two of the coolest places in the world I have ever been in my life.

 

Fabulous idea!