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A great revelation

Discussion in 'BoM Blogs' started by The Great Snook, Oct 7, 2008.

  1. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I have turned the corner.

    It was a strange thing. A couple of months ago, I ran into the "dark side" of the BoM. I had always been proud of my participation in the discussions in "The Alleys". But, then one day, I apparantly upset some of the more liberal posters. To my horror, they were giving me negative reputation. I admit, afterwards I behaved like a middle schooler. I was angry, and I was disappointed in the community. Life got in the way and I disappeared for a couple of weeks and seriously considered never coming back. Then I realized that was childish as I had too many people that I respected here. I figured, how hard can it be to ignore the ones I don't respect. It turned out it was easier then I expected.

    Well, today it has happened again. Someone drew a conclusion to a post I had written that they didn't like and zapped me. At first the same feelings came back, but then it turned to laughter. I realized that in the grand scheme of things it just doesn't matter.

    Everyone has to live by their own code of honor. Mine is and always will be to remain a positive force in the universe. Anytime I can bring a little happiness to someone that will be a good thing. I know politics can be a very sensitive and tender area for some people. I can't take someone disagreeing with me personally. I can't take someone else behaving badly (as I see it) as an assault on myself.

    You would have thought that after all my years and especially all my years on the internet I would have learned these few simple things. Maybe we do carry the lessons of adolesense with us forever. Who knows?
     
  2. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Unfortunately Snook, you are still behaving like a middle-schooler.

    Some people here indeed agree with your point of view many issues, and that's fine. I'm not one of them. Nonetheless, I consider that a good thing. I enjoy discussing issues of importance with people I disagree with. It helps me learn more about the world we live in, forces me to think constructively about my own views and on many occasions has made me seriously reconsider a position I previously had. I attribute my switch in stance on abortion to be a prime example (I'm very much pro-life now) of such exchanges here on SP. Two of my favorite SP members are T2Bruno and NOG for exactly that reason; guys with whom I disagree on just about everything, but I still respect their intellectual honesty and thoughtful discussion. I would add Hacken Slash and Grey Magistrate to that list, but they don't come around much anymore. This probably surprises you, but I'm center-left in my political views, admire and agree with many conservative principles, am a long-time fan of William F. Buckley and have disdain for many far left entities that you no doubt do as well (DKos, HuffPost, etc.). The last thing I want is an echo chamber.

    You are a different story. I once believed you to be a moderate conservative whose background and insight I could learn something from. I've even found agreement with you in the past in some cases. Over the past few years, however, you've undergone a silly downward spiral of self-parody, proving yourself to be one of the most obtuse, mindlessly partisan people I've ever encountered online. Between your constant whining about being treated unfairly for being conservative and your baseless, childish liberal-bashing, it's become extremely difficult to take you seriously. But nonetheless I have shown you the respect of responding to your posts, engaging you in discussion, and following your posts (and this blog) with an interest in what you had to say. I admit I've found it hard to keep quiet when you've posted something obviously intended not to provoke thought, but to annoy liberals. But then if you truly respected the community we share I'd like to think you would have better things to do. The last straw for me is when you injected your "traitor" comment when arguing with Aldeth, despite it being apropos on NOTHING being discussed in that thread, and then acted like a crybaby for getting some very deserved negative rep (I was one of the people who left it, by the way - my first ever at the time. It's been a while, but I thought I'd left my name, perhaps I didn't) instead of trying to understand WHY people might have thought you said something that was totally f*cked. Instead, you got pissy and stormed off, unrepentant and oblivious. Though it is admirable to see you admit it, clearly you gleaned the wrong lesson from that episode.

    And, as I've suspected for a few weeks now, you've officially confirmed that you've been sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "na na na, can't hear you" to the people with whom you disagree. How admirable of you. It is your right, I suppose. As is going directly to far right blogs to get your opinions, posting their partisan nonsense here verbatim (issues you casually "bring up" within hours or minutes of a Michelle Malkin freakout, I might add), and then rather than engage anyone who points out the logical fallacies or factual distortions therein, you ignore them. Rather than attempt to understand why anyone would have a problem with some of the asinine statements you make, you just go on your merry way and laugh when people are offended by the casual disrespect and obvious disingenuousness displayed by an educated 41-year old parent. You, sir, are awesome.

    Posting things you know will annoy people and deliberately ignoring what is sure to be their annoyed response is not the behavior of a grown man who values or respects a community in which he belongs, nor is it the behavior of a man interested in truth, facts or maintaining his integrity. It's the behavior of a troll. That's pretty much what you've become now, Snook - all but confirmed by your admission above. No discussion of the issues, just do drive-by video posts that you know are completely one-sided, but who cares, it's easier than forming an actual argument, right? No need to defend your positions or beliefs, you don't respect those questioning you enough to bother anyway. Make blanket insults to entire groups of your ideological opposites, then act indignant when they register their displeasure with the only means available to them. You're always right, they're teh ghey moonbatz. I struggle to imagine a scenario in which you are more shallow.

    It makes me wonder why you spend time here at all. Seriously. The forums of RedState or The New Republic are always looking for new posters, and you'll never have to ignore them. I still hold out hope that you'll begin being a thoughtful, honest broker for your ideas here again, but I'm not holding my breath. Perhaps when that day comes, if you get negative rep, you may start to consider that it isn't your opinions people object to, but the manner in which you delivered them. Far from turning a corner, you really seem to have fallen a mile. After all your years, internet or otherwise, you still have a lot of growing up to do. The "dark side" of the BoM held up a mirror to you, Snook. You say you live by a code, but there's no honor in what you do here. You are hardly being a "positive force in the universe." You're just being an ass. I hope you really think about what I'm telling you, as I'm not saying it to be a jerk or to be hurtful. I want to respect you again.
     
  3. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    While I admit, I tend to skip right over all of Death Rabbit's posts, since this was so long and in my little corner of BoM I feel it would only be appropriate to respond.

    Myself, I am a libertarian. I am strong fiscal conservative who believes in small government and even then that the government should leave us the heck alone and let us get on with our lives. Being a libertarian I believe that people should be allowed to do what they want as long as it doesn't restrict the rights of others to do what they want. In the words of Bill and Ted's Excellent adventure can't we all just "Be excellent to each other."

    That is who I am. Now since the libertarian party is full of a bunch of whackos who never have a chance to take control of anything other than at a local level I have to make decisions. More often than not that tends to lean towards the GOP.

    The BoM is so heavily slanted towards what we in the U.S. call liberals it is almost comical. All of the great past conservative posters that you mentioned all left because of that reason (I used to have the PMs to prove it). Eventually, you get tired of trying to fight the current and move on to calmer waters. I consider myself one of the exceptions and am probably the longest lived conservative poster at the BoM.

    What some consider "a silly downward spiral of self-parody, proving yourself to be one of the most obtuse, mindlessly partisan people I've ever encountered online" others consider an attempt to provide some balance. One of the quickest ways to annoy a liberal as you so eloquently put it; is to say something that they don't agree with. There is a reason that liberals are considered "elitist" while conservatives are not. Liberals take offense to things they don't believe in and spend more time trying to shout down the offending speech then trying to understand it. I have always found it ironic that the "Defenders of free speech" are always so willing to squelch it.

    Now as to the "Traitor" incident with Aldeth. Talk about being taken out of context. Aldeth and I exchanged a few PMs about that afterward. Never in my wildest dreams would I have guessed someone could read that post and think I was attacking Aldeth. If I'm guilty of anything it was that I got carried away and took my post beyond what the thread called for. I never modified the original post as I still feel it was a valid claim. As a matter of fact I'm going to repost the controversial part of that post here for people who missed the original.

    How that got interpreted as my claiming Aldeth was a traitor is beyond me. Yes, you were one of the anonomous brave ones who left negative rep. I did find it interesting that the people who did leave negative rep focused entirely on "Traitor" and Aldeth. While the ones who left positive rep enjoyed the entire post for what it was.

    I discussed this incident with the few conservatives who still post here and they were all pretty much stunned. I would love to see the stats as to whom posts the most negatives. It would never even enter my mind to give someone negative rep. That even includes the truly whackjob 911 conspiracy people and the USA haters.

    As to sticking my fingers in my ears, I guess that may be one way to put it. While there are plenty of liberal posters here that I truly respect and enjoy their posts (I won't name names to protect them) there are some that I lost respect for and just don't see the need to read and follow what they have to say.

    In regards to partisianship, I am a reluctant McCain supporter as I don't think the nation can trust Obama or his cronies to do what is in the best interest of the nation. These are my opinons and mine only. Do with them what you wish. Partisianship goes both ways and there are far more rabid Obama fans on these boards than McCain fans. If you don't see this, then you are truly blind.

    As to why I hang around here, it is because I enjoy it. There are some posters that I really enjoy and the CRPG stuff is top notch. Yes, I do tend to read conservative bloggers more often then "liberals". It is because I relate to them better.

    I don't believe I have any posts that I am ashamed of. Everything I have posted I believe in, if they came from me or from someplace else. I don't believe I have ever resorted to personal attacks or name calling (See Aldeth paragraph above). While I admit, I'm not above tweaking a nose or two occasionaly and yes there have been times that specifically posted something because I knew it would drive someone crazy, isn't that what boards are about? Just because someone tells me that something isn't relevant doesn't make it true. A classic example is the Ayers issue with Obama. His supporters liken this to a change of subject or something that is insignificant. Just because they want it to go away doesn't mean it will. For many people (including myself) the character of a man is judged by the company he keeps.

    The above is a terrible concluding paragraph, but I'm hungry and leaving to get something to eat. Sorry about that.
     
  4. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I don't see why you don't just disable reputation for yourself since it seems that you don't agree with the reactions that you provoke. There's a switch for it in your profile. We're not forcing anyone to live or die by reputation; use it if you think it has merit, or disable it if not. It's completely optional.
     
  5. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I just had a great revelation. I can see this is pointless, so I'll try to be brief. (EDIT...hm, fail.)

    I'm honestly amazed that despite my appealing to you personally and on your own turf, you refer to me in the third person as if I'm not here. What a sad, petty little man you are, Snook.
    What part of "I enjoy debating people I don't agree with" was not clear? I WANT balance. So does everyone else. What I don't want is the wingnut idiocy you try to pass off as "balance." If I wanted Michelle Malkin's take on the days events, I'd take an laxative, or throw on the hip waders and go to her place myself (in fact, I often do just to see what the daily flip-out is). I don't want discredited smears and irrelevant partisan nonsense from anonymous bloggers (that goes for Libs, too). I want conservative ideas presented in an intellectually honest and semi-respectful manner. NOG can do that and you're old enough to be his father. Why is he more of an adult than you are?

    When I, and people on this board who actually are liberal, disagree with you about something you say to the point that it pisses us off, it isn't because you say something we disagree with. Don't project on other people your obvious weakness in the face of opposing viewpoints (how else would you claim victimhood so much). If we get mad it's because you're a childish, condescending ass for saying things like "You have to remember, saying bad things about 'the chosen one' huh huh huh..." Come on. You're a grown man. I shouldn't have to explain that statements like that being insulting have nothing to do with Liberalism, and you do that all the time. Here, look: here's a conservative statement I disagree with: "We have to fight them over there so they don't come over here." No one would find that offensive, and yet nearly any Liberal would say it's hooey. Is that so hard?

    I wish you would at least try to process information with the common sense, well-educated part of your brain first and the knee-jerk, liberal-bashing part second (if at all). You'd be very interesting to discuss things with, and have been IMO. I'm actually interested in your views on tax policy, welfare, the current economic situation, gun control, etc. Do you think I would have gone to this trouble if I didn't? What I can't stand are your blanket dismissals and your sad devotion to this lame, cartoonish, dreadfully-inaccurate stereotype you have about Liberals, what they believe, and how they respond when confronted with conflicting viewpoints. That is what your steady diet of right-wing blogs and talk radio has done to your brain. If liberals are the champions of free speech and you feel they are hypocrites for it, fine...as an advocate of the notion of "personal responsibility," take a little yourself. If you say something and a liberal thinks you're an ass for it, then maybe...just maybe...it's because you just made an ass of yourself? If I'm to conclude that other SP conservatives have left for the reason you say, is it then fair to say that contemporary conservative positions are so weak that they can't stand up to even casual scrutiny? Is rational conservatism SO dead that 'tamer waters' are in order, lest you poor souls get savaged some more? I don't believe so, but you're making a smashing case for it.

    Disagreement and discussion is one of the main reasons people post in the Alleys. THAT is the point of a message board, not "tweaking a nose or two occasionaly and yes there have been times that specifically posted something because I knew it would drive someone crazy." You may be here for that reason - in fact, it's quite obvious based on this response - but that's you. I'm not, and if I thought for a second that was the majority agenda around here, I'd have left years ago. As it is I just re-upped my SPS account, so...obviously I find more here of interest than that.

    Finally - as for the traitor comment, I know what you said and how you said it. I know it wasn't directed at Aldeth personally. You're STILL an ass for saying it. Questioning the patriotism of people who disagree with you about the war - especially erecting nonsensical strawman arguments implying that anyone against it "wants the US to fail to discredit Bush" - is not something a fair-minded, well-informed, serious adult says. It's something a small-minded partisan @sshole says. THAT is why you got repped for it, not because it's liberals who are touchy, delicate flowers (though, if that's the excuse you're using to avoid taking responsibility for saying something beneath you, have at it). If that isn't what you meant, fine - but you had a chance to clear the record in that thread and made a crack about the FBI instead. Unrepentant dickdom does not replace candor. It's remarkable to me that that needs to be explained to a grown man.

    Please resume ignoring me. I'll regretfully do the same henceforth. I really, really wanted to find something to respect in you again, but...thems the breaks.
     
  6. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I tried to be nice in my first response, but let's face it, your original response and now your second response basically said nothing and were just personal attacks against me. I would assume if this was actually in one of the Alley's you would be warned for this.

    Wow, it certainly seems like some people can only dish it out, but can't take it. Could you please identify for me the posters you have given negative rep to for calling President Bush "Shrub"? Of the possibly thousands of times he has been called that on this board, did you even once take offense? Did you even once consider it childish? I'm guessing not. Did it ever dawn on you that maybe someone would think that it was insulting?, Once again, I'm guessing not. It is a time honored tradition to come up with derogatory names for politicians. Here is a list of some of my personal favorites for Obama. Please let me know which ones would be acceptable to you so I don't appear like a childish condescending ass.

    1. The Chosen One
    2. The Obamamessiah
    3. Urkel (this one always cracks me up)
    [​IMG]
    4. Obama-rama-ding-dong



    Back to the traitor comment. You can call me an ass, but you are clearly naive. Let me try to explain it better. Let's say that Urkel wins the election. What would you call Republicans if they spent the next four years sabotaging attempts to repair foreign policy and keeping the economy in a tailspin all for political gain in 2010 and then the Presidency in 2012. I'll tell you what you should call them, that would be "traitors".

    Feel free to respond if you want. I can't stop you, as I haven't figured out a way to stop you if I wanted to. Just try to keep the name calling and personal attacks to yourself.


    @Tal,

    I believe I will disable it. It saddens me to have to do so as it just doesn't seem like something that should be necessary.
     
  7. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    And again, death rabbit proves just what an ass he is. As TGS has noted he can dish it out but can not take it.
    Every single response has to have a personal attack in it.
    Notice, that anything that disagrees with his POV is "liberal-bashing" or "partisan websites" when EVERY single one of his postings is from such.

    Just put him on your ban list Snook, so you never have to see his blathering again. I did & it makes the boards a much more pleasant place.

    Like i told you before death rabbit, grow a set of balls, be a man & enlist. Until you bleed to defend your country & your rights, you are simply a whiner living on the blood of others.

    As far as negative rep goes, i love it. Justs proves that i am irritating the sanctimonious liberal/dems here. Ahhh(deep breath) the smell of liberal outrage is wonderful.
     
  8. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Don't worry, Snook. As you're on my ignore list now and this is the end, I'll just say this and be done.

    You clearly misunderstand something. When you say "you have to remember, saying anything about the chosen one / Obamassiah / whatever is blasphemy," you're not knocking Obama, you're calling those who support him naive idiots. And you know it. I don't care that people call Bush Shrub or that you call Obama Erkel, it is a tradition and it is kinda funny (I give you points for the Erkel thing, that is a good one :) ) - but yes it is childish, and you're childish to do it (as would I be). I've never thought much of the practice myself, and it's been so long since someone referred to Bush as Shrub, we didn't even have Rep back then. Last time I checked though, someone else doing something wrong doesn't make it ok for you to do it, does it?

    It would have been nice if, as I'd requested, you'd actually thought about what I was trying to tell you. It wasn't all personal attack. Your "let's face it" is a cheap dismissal, and I was honestly trying to get through to you in a tough-love kind of way. Trying to hold up even the tiniest of mirrors. What can I say, some people are so blindly partisan and lost in their own worldview they can't see reason. Someone who bathes himself in extreme partisan nonsense as consistently as you do, and with such a warped sense of "balance" to boot, doesn't get to call anyone else naive with much authority, either. I don't care how much my elder you are.

    I wish you the best, Snook. Take care of yourself and your family. You won't hear from me again, I assure you.

    EDIT: I see martaug still isn't bright enough to tell the difference between an attack and a criticism, a moderate and a liberal, and a patriot versus a nationalist and doesn't stop to think before posting. Just another sunny day, I guess. You take care too there, big guy.
     
  9. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    Ah, death rabbit with his typical drivel. You are as far from a moderate as a socialist is from a capitalist & as far as critisicm goes goes, how can we judge when you never offer anything but attacks?

    Don't tell me, you also think that ACORN is just a ducky group because they support democrats? You know, the group that barack was the lawyer for & helped train some of their high muckity-mucks?
     
  10. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    For the record, using pet nicknames for politicians (e.g. Shrub) has long been frowned upon in the Alleys and we've dished out a number of warnings over that. So while we've ignored this years back, it hasn't been so for about 2 years now. So if anyone sees anyone doing it, report the post and we'll look into it.

    As for what's fair game in blogs and what isn't - this sort of discussion wouldn't fly in the public forums, but we consider blogs only slightly removed from private messages, so only rule breakings taken to the extreme are sanctioned. This is listed in the red frame near the bottom of the forum rules page.

    There is a toggle for blog entry comments, so if someone doesn't want to allow comments on their entries to be posted by non-moderators, the option is there.
     
  11. Jack Funk Gems: 24/31
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    Snook,

    You turned the corner and found me. I can understand. I used to post quite a bit in the Alleys (and in Whatnots before the Alleys). I grew tired of the same attacks, the same posturing, by the same people. I still pop in from time to time and stir the pot, but I never stay for long.

    The responses in this blog (Tal excluded) are a perfect example of the sort of disrespectful, disdainful posturing that is all too common in the Alleys. From both conservatives and liberals. Name calling. Intellectual superiority. "Intellectual" e-thugs. People saying things to others they would never say to someones face.

    If people here (and in most internet forums) conducted themselves like they were sitting across the table from one another, the discussion might, might, be useful. As it stands, it is a tedious exercise in chest thumping by civics geeks.

    There are some great posters here. I marvel at the grace and self control exhibited by some (T2, BTA, NOG, CTR come to mind). Unfortunately, they are the minority.

    Good luck to all of you. Remember, at the end of the day, it's the internet and your opinion. Try not to take either of them too seriously.

    Peace.
     
  12. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    Sorry, jack funk, but i believe in standing up for what i feel is right. Certain F'n idiots here just tick me off no end. Hell DR talked so much smack in some PM's , i offered to drive anywhere on the eastern seaboard to get a chance to meet him in person & adjust his attitude. He declined of course.
    See, as a 40ish year old jarhead, i never did quiet grasp the concept of allowing myself to be browbeaten, when in doubt, attack.
     
  13. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I suggest you open your own blog for comments such as those because if that was aimed at me I wouldn't reply to it just for the sake of not using another member's blog as a personal battleground. And if you had some sense, you wouldn't have posted something like that on another person's blog to begin with. Don't think that because we don't moderate blogs as much as the public forums that we'll just let threats of physical violence against any member slide. I strongly recommend that you don't make another again.
     
  14. Jack Funk Gems: 24/31
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    It's fine to stand up for what you believe in, it's another to let someone get to you on the internet. I used to feel the same way. I have gotten into it many times on these boards. Then one day, I decided, it wasn't worth it. I knew I couldn't get people to act more civil and I knew I wasn't going to change their minds on the issues. So what was the point? We all know that much of the disrespectful behavior that takes place online would not occur face to face. It wasn't easy to walk away, but in the end, it was the best thing for me. I have rage issues and I did not need the provocation.

    Good luck to both Snook and martaug. Hopefully you can continue to participate without getting agitated.

    To all of you, try to be more respectful. If enough people stop participating, then you won't have debate at all. There will be a bunch of like minded individuals, slapping each other on the back and claiming victory. Over what?
     
  15. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Jack, why did I send you a PM a few weeks ago? Was it to ask you to stay away, or to come back and participate in the boards again? Why did I say above that I want debate and not an echo chamber?

    If you want to use supposed "e-thuggery" as a reason not to post here any more, that's a shame - because I like you personally. Truth be told, I can't say I dislike Snook much, either. But your insistence that civil debate isn't possible here is just silly, as is your disdain shown for disrespect coming from the left while ignoring it when it comes from the right. Respect is earned, but often so is disrespect. The need for people to try to be more respectful goes both ways, which, as you seem to have missed, is the whole point I was trying to get across to Snook on this blog. I've tried in a civil manner to get that point across to him on several occasions in the past. It didn't take, and his continued disrespect coupled with his apparent amusement in that disrespect led to my less-than-pleasant response above. You may think what I said was unwarranted, but the PMs in my inbox seem to indicate otherwise.

    Good luck to you, Jack. Hopefully you can participate again without getting agitated, but I hope that when you do you can be a lot more fair about who does the agitating around here (yourself included, you were no angel in that department, either) as there has been plenty to go around. And if you do continue to stay away, I understand completely and props on that too. I wouldn't want you back if you didn't enjoy it. Peace.
     
  16. Jack Funk Gems: 24/31
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    Hey DR,
    Please reread my responses. I did not specifically call out the left, in fact, I was careful not to. In my first response, I stated that the responses in this blog (Tal excluded) were a perfect example of the problem. Not just yours. In fact, my short list (off the top of my head) of people who I think do it well includes Chandos.

    In short, both sides are guilty of it. Again, just read the responses here.

    As for me, I never claimed to be an angel. That said, you can go and look. You won't find many (if any) instances of name calling by me (Edit: oh wait, I did refer to Ragusa as Rag USA a few times). I did send one particularly nasty PM many years ago. For the most part, I tried to be diplomatic, again, go back and read.

    I stopped being an active participant because I was tired of the lack of respect. Tired of being quoted out of context. Tired of arguing (Not debating! There is not enough debate on the internet) with people who saw the world in a completely different (irreconcilable) way then me.

    Anyway, I wish no ill will on any of you. If you enjoy the Alleys the way they are, then have at it. But take notice of who is no longer there. The list grows. I would certainly participate more if the tone were different. I doubt I am alone.
     
  17. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    Rag USA . . . . Now thats funny jack!
    I'll have to remember that the next time he bugs me:p
    Actually if you look at some of the non-election but still political threads lately they have gotten more civil. Heck just look at the latest gun control thread, no ones thrown a hissy-fit or called anyone "an illiterate cro-magnon" or "a criminal coddling hanky wringer" yet ! !
    It almost qualifies as an actual debate:D
     
  18. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Fair enough, Jack. But I don't need to go back and read anything, I heard you fine the first time. When you said this:
    ...it did appear that not only did you not see any fault with their behavior, but you were excusing them from doing any agitating themselves (otherwise, why not say good luck to Tal and I as well?). I understand that likely wasn't your intent, that's just how it looks. Couple that with the fact that the three of you are (largely) birds of a political feather and it's a natural reaction. If you were trying to call out both sides, that deserves merit and appreciation - but you did a semi-lousy job, no? Lastly, calling someone a name is by no means the only way to show disrespect. You can go back and read my posts as well, this is the first time I've resorted to actual namecalling (it'll be the last time, too), but what can I say - I was pissed off and this isn't an Alley thread, so the rules are different here. I don't need to go back and read yours, I can remember several past incidents just fine. But they are the past, so I'm happy to keep them there. My whole point in this is that I'm as hopeful for a more civil and respectful Alley environment as you are, and it is worth working towards.

    Over and out.
     
  19. Jack Funk Gems: 24/31
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    You see DR, you take one comment in isolation and highlight it to make a point. That is part of the overall problem. This happens frequently in the Alleys and is counter productive.

    In regards to what you did quote: Snook expressed that he considered leaving. You did not. Martaug expressed agitation to the point of threats. You did not. Hence my comment to them. Frankly, I don't care if any of you stick around. The Alleys have essentially turned into the kind of pathetic Red Team/Blue Team partisan BS that I find so frustrating in general. The lines are drawn and nobody is going to abandon their team, much less take a middle position. Among the reasons I stopped posting is that people refused to recognize that:
    * I was on neither team
    * I believe that nearly all politicians from both sides have it wrong and are selfishly motivated.

    Am I conservative? Yes. Am I a Republican? No. I am a constitutionalist libertarion. Small letters.

    The framework does not allow for that, so I was continually lumped in as a Republican.

    Finally, I did not do a "semi-lousy job" making my point, you did a lousy job reading my posts. If you actually read them. The fact that you could state that I blamed liberals and gave the other side a pass is remarkable. I didn't take sides, you just expected me to. And so you drew conclusions based on your expectations, instead of on what I'd actually written.

    Again, this blog is a perfect example of all of the things that stifle legitimate debate in the Alleys, and in the world in general.

    Both sides do it. Both sides are wrong.

    Clear enough?
     
  20. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    No, actually. I drew conclusions based on what you wrote, Jack. I explained to you how it came off, while acknowledging that you may not have intended it that way. Was that wrong? I didn't say you did give anyone a pass, just how it appeared. Please don't assign me dubious intent while lecturing me about my expectations - it kind of ruins your point. If I misread you, fine - just say so. Part of the frustration in discussing things with you is you don't seem able to recognize how your own words are interpreted by other people and then become indignant and defensive when they end up misreading you. You don't acknowledge that your words could have been interpreted that way, you instead turn around and blame the other person and tell them they can't read. Then we start arguing semantics about who said what and what they meant when we're probably essentially agreed. Sound familiar? You've done this before. That, also, is an example of how legitimate debate gets stifled and the discourse goes to sh*t. When I say "you're no angel," that's primarily what I'm referring to. You have on several occasions contributed to the very derision and lack of respect you deride so much, yet apparently don't even realize it. Sorry man, it's just the truth.

    Despite your complaint - I was acknowledging your point of view while explaining my own position. Both sides are absolutely guilty of it. I think you're correct to take the position you have and I respect it. I'm sorry you missed that, but I don't feel out of line saying that perhaps you were too busy drawing a false conclusion about what my intentions are to notice. Maybe you could also have focused on what I'd written instead of what you think I meant, too. I think you'd find you and I agree on far more than you think. Please understand me on this, lest accusations of dishing it out but not taking it start to fly again.

    Anyway, sorry we got our signals crossed. I think this has now become sufficiently pointless, so - let's just agree to disagree and leave it alone. You aren't remotely open to persuasion and you obviously don't think I am either, so...enough time wasted. I think you and I should forever stick to music, movies, and other trivial BS where we can actually get along. Deal?
     
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