2h sword vs. dual wielding

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Ah yes, let's compare a couple of +1 daggers with Carsomyr; I'm sure that'll prove your point.

Wrong again. I've got one of my own and I handle it just fine one-handed, thank you. Probably not in heavy armor, but still... Also note that I included the classic long and short sword combo, which still trumps the two-hander.

Yes, apparently you will; despite the math.

For the heck of it, let's try some medium-range comparisons. Say, a Scimitar +3 and Belm against a Two-handed Sword +3, and let's say two points in each proficiency. First, average:

Scimitar +3 gets 3.5 attacks at 9.5 damage, and Belm gets 1 attack at 8.5 damage. 3.5 * 9.5 + 8.5 = 41.75

The two-handed sword gets 2.5 attacks at 11.5 damage, plus 5% for the extra critical. 2.5 * 11.5 = 28.75, 28.75 * 1.05 = 30.1875

Now, max:
Scimitar +3 gets 3.5 attacks at 13 damage, and Belm gets 1 attack at 12 damage. 3.5 * 13 + 12 = 57.5

The two-handed sword gets 2.5 attacks at 16 damage, plus 5% for the extra critical. 2.5 * 16 = 40, 40 * 1.05 = 42

Finally, minimum:
Scimitar +3 gets 3.5 attacks at 6 damage, and Belm get 1 attack at 5 damage. 3.5 * 6 + 5 = 26

The two-handed sword gets 2.5 attacks at 7 damage, plus 5% for the extra critical. 2.5 * 7 = 17.5, 17.5 * 1.05 = 18.375

 

...

Just quit. It wasn't worth you going on.

specially since none of it fixes the fact that you manage to get 10 hits out of the combo with Belm and I don't.

Edit:Friend of mine did me a favor so that I could show you the screen shot. She's wielding Belm and an Axe with three proficiencies in each and two in dual wield. I get 5 attacks without improved haste and here is my character with it.

http://www.cummins.us/bg/screenshot.jpg

[ January 29, 2006, 01:40: Message edited by: starwalker ]

 

Very true. I guess you just mis-spoke earlier. Though if I actually used mine like that around here, my basement would be full of ruined practice targets instead of just the two.

Meant to be, no, but it sometimes was. A lone samurai who is surrounded must use everything at his disposal. I'm not sure they'd be suited for the kind of dual offense utilized in the game, though.

Hmm, I'm surprised the defaults haven't been discussed. Usually I don't start dual-wielding until I get Celestial Fury and Belm (both available in Chapter 2), and I would think that comparing those with Carsomyr +5 (also available in Chapter Two) would've been a given. As unrealistic as it is, let's get some numbers. Assuming two points in everything and before STR bonus:

Average:
CF gets 3.5 attacks at 10.5 damage, and Belm gets 1 attack at 8.5 damage. 3.5 * 10.5 + 8.5 = 45.25
Carsomyr gets 2.5 attacks at 12.5 damage, with a 5% bonus for the extra critical. 2.5 * 12.5 * 1.05 = 32.8125

Maximum:
CF gets 3.5 attacks at 15 damage, and Belm gets 1 attack at 12 damage. 3.5 * 15 + 12 = 64.5
Carsomyr gets 2.5 attacks at 17 damage, with a 5% bonus for the extra critical. 2.5 * 17 * 1.05 = 44.625

Minimum:
CF gets 3.5 attacks at 6 damage, and Belm gets 1 attack at 5 damage. 3.5 * 6 + 5 = 26
Carsomyr gets 2.5 attacks at 8 damage, with a 5% bonus for the extra critical. 2.5 * 8 * 1.05 = 21

Damn. I thought Carsomyr would at least get it on the minimum. But keep in mind, everyone, that these are all with Belm; having a regular weapon in the off-hand would very likely not do as good. Though having Belm, Kundane, and the Scarlet Ninja-To in the game means you can get two (or three with UAI) dual-wielding dervishes, others in your party will have to settle for dual-wielding with Crom Faeyr for big hits or grabbing a two-hander or shield. But for the soloist, dual-wielding is the best.

EDIT:
Ah, I believe I have the answer for your dilemma, Starwalker. Seeing that first haste symbol makes me think she's probably wearing the Boots of Speed, right? Well, there's a bug with them; they actually give you the effects of a full haste spell, which includes an extra half-attack. Your wizard slayer would normally only get 9/2 with her other equipment; you can take off the boots to check. But Improved Haste overrides the constant Haste from the Boots, doubling your 9/2, not the 5. In order to get 10 with Improved Haste, you need True Grandmastery (included as an optional part of both EoU and Baldurdash, IIRC) to get that extra half-attack before any haste effects. Or you could always dual-wield two of the +1 attack weapons; I think it stacks.

If you want, I could redo the previous "10 attack" calculations for excluding True Grandmastery, but it would take away more from the Carsomyr side, as it was added there too to get 6 attacks instead of five.

Oh, and I think Baldurdash removes the Boots of Speed bug, but I'm not sure.

[ January 29, 2006, 02:11: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

Maybe your friend wasn't using gauntlets of extraordinary specialisation? They add half an attack. None of the Baldurdash fixes do anything to improved haste as far as I can see, though.

We can argue about individual weapon properties all day. I'm just comparing the basic stuff. The monster I was testing on was lawful evil, for the record (even though it was a drow, and should've been chaotic evil by rights). But just to humour you, I tested it on a chaotic evil monster, and Carsomyr did indeed pull way ahead - it hit for 58, times six is 348. Nice. Shame alignments are so sloppily done in BG2 or there might be more CE things for that to work against. Then again I could use much the same argument to say that the Runehammer would do way better versus undead than Carsomyr or similar.

Anyway. If you really want a dual wielder that'll leave the two-handed folks in the dust, you need a multiclass fighter/thief. Take UAI as soon as possible. Get yourself the scarlet ninja-to, put it in your offhand and toss Belm into the trash. Under the conditions from my previous post, the ninja-to critical hits for 30, but more importantly it's enchanted +3, so you can hit most things in the game with it. 336 changes back to 396, and in addition to that you get to apply your strength bonus two more times. Whee!

 

Actually Carsomyr works against some enemies it shouldn't because of the screwy alignments. The sad thing is the screwy alignments are a bit more true to the game world considering they were all supposed to be mixed in the world. Even if it doesn't make realistic sense or RP sense by what the characters are bound to because of their alignment. Though it would make things a lot more predictable as to what that little power would work on so you could know if it's really going to help when you truely need it. Like some of the bosses. Amazing what a difference a couple of points makes though isn't it?

Yeah she has the boots of speed on and I don't have True Grand Mastery. Also being a Wizard Slayer she can't wear the gauntlets sadly. So I stuck them on Cernd or Misnc I think. That's the one annoying drawback about them. Can't wear a lot of the bonus equipment. But I've boosted her stats enough between BG1 and BG2 SoA+ToB to give her a 23 Con as well as a straight 24 strength without anything enhancing it.

She has moved on to wielding the Axe of Unyielding and the Spectral Brand.

 

Oh right, that's your character. And oh yeah, she's a wizard slayer, no gloves. Der me.

But yeah, that is pretty incredible. 1D12+12 against CEs? That'd have to make it potentially the most damaging weapon in the game. I don't play paladins much nor use two-handed swords with my thieves, so I usually just give Carsomyr to Keldorn and forget about it. Damn, though.

 

by itself i do think it may be. Adding in other factors like equipment and other things I do believe it can be topped. Flail of ages does tons of damage. Staff of the Ram does a bunch. Axe of Unyielding uses the next bigger die and makes you regenerate. Dwarven Hammers get an additional d4 to their base damage before enchantments. Make a dwarf some time and try out the dwarven thrower early on. I think you'll like it. Make it a high strength cleric for some real kicks.

Part of what disguises how much Carsomyr can do is partly that it's powers don't work on everything (but a least it still gets a massive base ammount added on) and the dispelling affect. That dispelling affect gives that power to hit things easier so it's easy to miss what it's hitting for in a "now your protections or gone and your easy to pummel" moments. I've been tempted to install the alignment fix of the oversight mod for a game or two just to give it more predictable damage.

You want to see things get sick and wrong in a core game however? Stack the regenerating items on one character. Ring of Regeneration. Ring of Gaxx. The Ion stone. Axe of Unyielding. And take the propper steps through tomes, Lum's Machine, and hell trials. I think there are a couple items or something I'm missing. But stick them all together on a character. You'll notice insane regenerative powers. Weaker enemies might actually give you that "I'm healing faster than they can hit me!" sense.

But I think I'm getting off topic. sorry. I tend to ramble a little and i haven't slept much today.

 

Don't forget weapons like Blackrazor. Despite it's low enhancement bonus, it's still one of the better weapons in the game I think. Combine it with the Celestial Fury, you have improved haste, level drain, infinate stun ability, and more all combined into one neat little package. Blackrazor can also regen based on his IIRC.

 

If it lets you regenerate then Black Razor is one that it would probably be worth moving Axe of Unyielding to the offhand for because you still get it's bonuses. Since Black Razor's bonuses mostly apply when hitting something else you want it doing it often.

 

They apply at 20%, so it's not exactly 'needed' to be on the main hand. That's why it's so good!