Bad People

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Have you ever come across someone that made you feel wary, although there wasn't any particular thing you could point out, that made you feel that way?

 

An incredibly specific question.

 

Yes; sometimes frequently. The first major one was my stepfather. That can partially be explained by the fact that my real father was a jerk and I was glad when mom took me and left him. After that I've had trouble trusting other guys; especially guys that are bigger than myself or have authority over me for any reason. But in my stepfather's case my instincts proved right. A bit more than a year before my mom met him his first wife divorced him and convinced the judge at their divorce that he was a danger to his own children and should be denied any contact. The judge agreed. So I was the victim of his redirected self-hatred for nearly my whole childhood.

There have been others that subtly reminded me of them. Men who proved to have a vicious and vindictive streak. Too much of the time I ended up their favorite scapegoat.

 

@WickedPrince - It sucks that you had to have that childhood Wicked. I guess the worst part about it is that your mother didn't trust her own instincts about your stepfather(or maybe her radar just wasn't working anymore.)

@ imp - Focused questions seem to make more focused answers. You never really know which direction a conversation is going to take anyway, in the end.

 

She definitely should have known better. I have the suspicion that she convinced herself that I was the problem; not him. When I finally got out of there though she learned who the real problem was. I'm not sure if I'm more saddened that there are people like him out there; or that we both had to live with him because she wasn't smart enough to see the light.

I suspect that he asks such vague questions just to see what sorts of answers he'll get.

 

It's survival.

The brain is designed to find patterns to keep you safe. Sometimes they backfire, sometimes they pick up on things so subtle you can't quit put your finger on what is reminding you of danger.

I used to get it fairly frequently but never trusted myself. Now I've been more conscious about noticing red flags it happens less because I can put my finger on what is wrong and why I've been able to weed a lot out of my life that wasn't good for me and also work on breaking down patterns that weren't helping me any more.

 

The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker is an excellent read on this subject. Oprah described the book as a must read with the comment, “this book will save your life.”

 

I'm glad you were able to figure some of that out. For me especially it's been an ongoing problem and I've never figured out what was triggering me.

 

Certainly humans (any animal, really), is typically wired to see and avoid patterns. Typically, if I have a gut feeling, I've learned to trust that feeling. I don't know what is triggering it, or more specifically, what in someone else is triggering it for me, but certainly it is usually correct. It's usually not a wary feeling, though, just a feeling that I don't like a person.

Waryness could apply to situations more than persons, though. Or it could be just that feeling that it's going to rain.

Children are better at trusting that gut feeling, I find. My son always knows immediately if he likes someone or not. They are less burdened by trying to apply logic to what they feel. Because we are not logical creatures.

As for trying to detect patterns, some people do seem bad at that, though. Like @WickedPrince's mom. Probably the same reason that you feel wary of certain people, is makes those people with a nasty streak notice you. They sense a victim. Or someone that has been in the victim role a lot previously.

 

Your point is sound in most ways but I really dislike that word, henkie. I'm neither a victim or have been in a victim role. I've been through some shit and I learned some aspects of human nature that I don't like, but calling someone a victim weakens them. True though, that some people are more prone to attract and allow abusers into their life, than others. It's well known that sociopaths are attracted to empaths (and sometimes vs) because of opportunities for control.

 

You're certainly right, Dice, it's not just being a victim, but I'm not that good with words. It fits some cases, and there are probably similar markers that attract similar people.

 

As a long-time victim I prefer victim; it more correctly describes what henkie is saying about the fact that victims tend to attract victimizers. I eventually realized that my nondescript shy attempts to avoid notice were actually just tells that let people know that I was a victim waiting to happen. That's when I started reinventing my appearance to look tougher; I now wear a black biker jacket and black engineer boots and generally do the "punk" all black clothing thing. I've had far fewer problems since then. I call it the "monarch butterfly principle" - you see Monarch Butterflies subsist on a plant most animals consider nasty and nearly poisonous. Once a bird accidentally eats a Monarch they won't touch a butterfly with that color pattern again. But there are something like 27 species of butterflies that look similarly enough to monarchs that birds mistake them and leave them alone; even though they don't eat what the monarchs eat and don't have the same awful taste. Entertainingly enough the birds can't tell the difference between the real monarchs and the false monarchs; but the butterflies themselves have no problems doing so when it comes to mating season. So in this case the bugs seem to be smarter than the birds. But yes; henkie's principle that victims draw victimizers is sound from my experience. I'm still basically socially self-conscious and shy; but I'm more willing to speak up for myself and more inclined to be "in your face" publicly rather than trying to hide in the shadows. It works more often than not.

Additionally like henkie I've learned to pay attention to that gut feeling that there are people that I just don't like; very frequently I find there is a very good reason for it.

 

And how are victims called that did not survive?
PC language does nothing to protect the victims of crimes, it only creates some fog around them to make other people feel better talking about them. And it prevents that victims go and receive the aid they usually need because "I´m no victim, I stronk, Survivor". Accepting help to get over the trauma of e.g. a few years of abuse usually requires to first accept that one was a victim, because if you swallow the rubbish about being a survivor you might come to the conclusion that you would not need a few dozen hours of talking with a psychiatrist because you were no victim and it might encapsulate the trauma so that you would suffer more, for longer or become abusive against yourself and others untreated.

In Germany even the law that grants money to victims of crimes is called (in our usual way of keeping words small and understandable):
"Opferentschädigungsgesetz" which would be the Crime Victims Compensation Act
but before someone receives money he has to be recognized as the victim of a crime by the court.

 

Yeah I've found that most PC terms tend to minimize the importance of those who have truly suffered while maximizing the importance of those who haven't really suffered anything. PC-ism often is just a way for people to "cry wolf" in order to get attention that should go to people who have suffered actual trauma.

There's a comedy movie called PCU ( https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110759/ ) that's about a university that's gone total PC and how ridiculous it is. It's a fun movie even if you ignore the message. IE that all this PC hogwash is a load of bull.

I also support what ConjurerDragon says: I'm 58; my personal abuse started at 4; and it wasn't until I was 42 that I accepted that I NEEDED HELP if I was ever going to recover. I kept trying to convince myself that I'd survived HELL as a child; I could figure out how to overcome this. At 42 my life - such as it was - was falling totally apart and I was at a loss for how to recover; so finally I started looking around for psychotherapy help that I could afford considering I was unemployed and had eaten nearly all of my savings. I've been in therapy for 16 years now and I still don't have answers. But at least I'm working towards recovery rather than hiding from the trauma that infected my entire life. A part of male human nature is to think we need to resolve every situation ourselves and telling us "we are survivors" just makes us think we don't need help because the worst is over when in reality the damage has been done and we need significant help in recovery that most of us never end up getting.

 

I loved PCU. Jeremy Piven with hair is comedy gold by itself. Then throw in a music performance by George Clinton (the only Clinton I like) and you have a classic.

 

Let me say this, Please.

I am a male, 64 years old now, and in recovery from a lot of different things.

As a 2 year old I was raped by one of my mother's husbands and stuck in a dark closet afterward, being told I wouldn't be released until I stopped crying and promised not to ever tell anyone. I wet my bed until I was 13 years old from that trauma alone, and it didn't end there. Another of her husbands gave my older brother and I 12 ounce bottles of beer, at 5 and 4 years old respectively, and had us smoke non-filtered cigarettes and blow smoke rings for his poker friends. I grew addicted to the smoking *not able to quit until nearly 37 years later* and alcohol was my first experience with a substance that made me feel buzzed, got me a lot of positive attention (rather than the beatings I usually received for wetting the bed) and helped me not be afraid of the dark.
I went on to other drugs, sexually inappropriate behaviors of my own and became violent in my early to late 30's, to the point that I was incarcerated in an institution for the criminally insane for what was supposed to be a 16 year sentence, until California changed their laws that any sex offender who was deemed a danger to society and violent could and would be kept confined for the duration of their natural lifespan. I qualified is as much detail as I feel should be shared on this forum.

I received treatment - something that I had never received in spite of serving 10 years of active service in the Marine Corps - and was finally diagnosed with Major Depression with Psychotic Episodes, Borderline Personality Disorder and Psychoactive Substance Abuse issues. With counseling, medications and support I was able to learn to face myself and my issues head on. I was told that I didn't HAVE to live the life of the 'animal' I had become and that life could be different, even for me.

It only took 4 years for my behaviors and *** the real key to change *** attitudes to alter to where the hospital staff came to me and informed me that instead of remaining there for the rest of my life I was being released. That was on January 23rd, 1993. Soon to be 30 full years ago if I am fortunate enough to live that long.

I read some of the statements regarding PC and while I cannot judge for others I know for myself that the state of being a victim led to my victimizing others for many years. It was only when I began my own recovery from the abuse I had experienced and began helping others overcome their victim state that I became a 'survivor'. I can only state from my personal experience that if I had remained simply a victim I would have probably remained confined for the duration of my entire lifespan.

Yes, I still carry the stigma of my mental illness and the heinous crimes I committed to this day. However, I do not blame my upbringing or even those that victimized me (they themselves were probably victims as well is what the therapists in the institution taught me) and I have accepted the responsibility for not just my own behaviors and crimes but also for my recovery from my past. BY altering my perspective from that of being a victim I was able to look at myself and see that the choices I had made were the outgrowth of my experiences and that I did not have to live in them any longer.

Upon my release I studied psychology and substance abuse extensively, I then became a Certified Counselor myself and worked for several organizations, eventually being hired by the State Health Department of California, in the city of Santa Rosa, CA.

I retired and took disability from that job in 2001 due to the stress causing me to have night terrors and violent outbursts, choosing to follow my doctor's suggestions and moving back to my home state of Missouri, where I still live and work as a consultant on a pro bono basis only.

If a person is victimized and does NOT receive treatment I have been taught by my own therapists and what I have studied they are more likely to victimize others themselves, though often not in the same way they were victimized themselves.

A male child, victimized as I was for example, can grow to victimize females rather than males. Females that are victimized often find themselves falling into relationships where the perpetrator's personality traits are reflected in the behaviors of their own perpetrator ,sometimes even allowing a perpetrator to victimize not just themselves but also their own children.

Of all of these different statements I have read on this site one stands out as an absolute truth in my experience. Get the help you need. Don't wait and don't fear what others might think.

I was 38 years old before I ever told anyone about what had been done to me. And I've only been in recovery for the last 32 years. I've heard it said: "34 years into the woods to get lost, it will take at least 34 years to get back out again."

My doctor's said I will never be wholly sane, but I have the choice today to continue to work and walk toward sanity, by accepting who I am.

I was a victim ... today I am a survivor.

 

I agree from my own experience that as a victim it's hard to fight the urge to victimize others. I still struggle with that. I am sometimes overly quick to judge whether others are good or bad and sometimes create enmities with people that feel like abusers. I'm usually right in that assessment; but it doesn't help me to cause strife with them. It usually ends up coming back around to convince others that "I" was the problem all along, and maybe my frustration and aggression towards these people IS the problem. I have to fight the tendency to be overly judgemental towards others. I eventually realized that my frustration and irritation with others stemmed from a frustration and irritation with myself that I was misplacing on to others. I've suffered from a massive social anxiety for most of my life. But during my childhood I was much more positive about making new friends and being social. It wasn't until high school that I started to learn to hate and distrust others to the degree that I became sullen and withdrawn. My self-frustration was based on the fact that I hated myself for that very reason. I wanted to be friendly and sociable again but I forgot how. Now I'm lucky if I can manage to maintain basic relationships with others. Though I'm struggling to become better. Most people have their parents as role models of what they want to become like when they grow up; I had role models of people I wanted to be completely UNLIKE because they were selfish, self-centered, and abusive. It's a lot harder to decide how to act when all you can do is try to not be like people that disgusted you. Far too often you can slip into becoming just a different kind of abuser even when you struggle not to be. I eventually realized that this is what I'd become. I was selfish, self-centered and abusive in a different way only. Now I'm trying to learn how to correct that.

 

Absolutely. And if my experience has anything to share with others, it’s that anyone CAN change.

The ‘bad’ that people do does not have the define who they are.

Facing up to myself, recognizing what I had done as being an outpouring of the pain I had internalized, I learned that I could choose not to act out on it any longer.

I have not raised my hands in anger toward another human being since I was released from the institution. Not because I’m better at recovery than anyone, and certainly not because I’m special or unique!

Anyone can change, IF they can be brought to the point of recognizing themselves and their own behaviors and then taught that they have the choice not to act in the same manner they always have in the past.

This usually only happens when a catastrophic event occurs in their lives or through direct intervention by society (as in my case) but I am hoping that if I speak out and advocate for recognition of this other way of living, then perhaps others will take advantage of the opportunity they have to chose for themselves as well.

Too often I hear people tell those who are victimizers “you should be ashamed of yourself” and many do internalize that shame.

But shame is merely self-destructive self-pity, where a perpetrator puts on a display and beats them self up in order to avoid being held accountable for their actions, and where the only thing they are really sorry about is getting caught.

I practice ‘guilt’ (even though it is used interchangeably in dictionaries around the world with shame) because guilt for myself is legitimate remorse for any actions I have taken that have caused harm to another and with that remorse as a motivation I practice the willingness to do whatever it takes to not repeat the behavior.

 

@DamagedDad So I guess you're saying that "bad people" only refers to people at a certain moment in time? People do change their outlook on life as time passes and some people are capable of change. Despite the bad things that shaped your life, something rang a bell that told you that you had to change. Being abused as a child and then becoming an abuser is not an uncommon story. Society is slowly changing to realise that both sides of this cycle need help in the form of therapy, either psychologically or with psychiatry.

It's good that you acknowledge the bad things you've done and are showing remorse for it. If you caused damage to someone that will affect them for the rest of their life, then you will have to live with that for the rest of your life.