Why game over when PC dies?

Remove all ads!

I haven't had this explained to me properly but maybe someone could 'convince' me why this happens.
As I first saw it in BG 1 once you die you lose your Bhaal essence and thus your ability to be raised. However in ToB Sarevok reminded me of a very important argument against this: Imoen. Imoen dies often, yet I can raise her like anyone else. In fact she's easier to raise than some others, she's got a high CON in comparison. After dieing she retains her bhaal essence. Why should the game end if the PC dies then? Obviously you can rely on your companions to bring you back from the dead, especially if you have a love interest in the party (who ironically all have the ability to raise dead).

So why not do the Icewind Dale thing? End the game when 'everyone' in the pary dies. Don't make the player character so valuable. Sure its all about him, but logic is not consistant in this game.

Can anyone prove me wrong?

 

Automatic resurrection by a party member be spell, spell scroll or rod seems reasonable, but to raise you at a temple, your party would need to carry your body there. This necessitates either going back where you came from or the party finishing the dungeon and resurrecting you afterwards. As you're dead, you don't decide. The party decide. Therefore you'd be faced with calculated results, perhaps after a prolonged action movie sequence. At best, it's location, item gain, GP gain/loss, XP gain. At worst, it's roleplaying choices made by some NPC, that is computer. Are you sure you want that?

 

Considering how your party follows your orders to the letter while in combat, they will even attack one of their own party it can be thought you control them in almost every sense bar a few 'forced' decisions (Keldorn attacking Viconia) for instance. Perhaps the computer could 'check' if you have the ability to raise the main character without outside assistance. However if you lose that ability during the combat (i.e. your cleric dies and there are no dropped RoRs or Scrolls of Raise Dead) the game ends.

 

It is YOU who play the game. If you like to watch what NPC's do, you could as well go see a movie. There is this little thing called interactivity in these games.

I haven't played Icewind Dale 1, but in Icewind Dale 2 you create all the characters yourself, so this is why game is over when everyone is dead.

 

Is it the same for multiplayer mode then? All the characters are created by you but if the PC dies game over? I still think my party would be smart enough to raise me, I don't carry a rod of resserection around with me for 'private' reasons...

 

I can't remember.. I once played the game creating all the characters myself. I think it was the main character whose death had a meaning, so maybe there is something in the storyline which prevents the resurrection.

 

But Mayfairy, what is this reasoning in the storyline?

 

I really don't know, nor can I check that because I don't have the game at the moment. Maybe there isn't one.

 

Yes, if you play multiplayer, or if you create all the characters yourself, it is only the "leader" whose death causes the game to end. By "leader" I mean the first character you create if you make all the party members, or the game creator in multiplayer.

My take on it is that Imoen is the freak. Every other Bhaalspawn lose their Bhaal essence the same way. It's something with Imoen. You can't be raised from the dead because your body disintegrates, so there's no body to bring back to life. Nothing short of a wish spell (and maybe not even that) would return the character to life. It doesn't explain why Imoen doesn't disintegrate when she dies, but the question should be why is Imoen the way she is - not why is the PC the way he/she is.

 

But Sarevok is resurrected too, even though he lost his essence. But if he disintegrated (like he should have, being a bhaalspawn), how could he be resurrected? Another freak like Imoen?

And, what I also find weird is that when Imoen asks him what it's like to die, he replies with something like:
Don't make me laugh, are you trying to tell me such a weak creature such as yourself hasn't died and been resurrected a number of times?

I mean, he says it like it's so common. But if Imoen's really is that weird, shouldn't Sarevok be surprised that she can so easily be resurrected?

 

Not to mention all the other Bhallspawn I kill don't disintergrate when I kill them, they just 'die'. Sometimes they die in a nasty way as kibbles but when they just fall down I don't see any disintergration. Sure thats just graphical but its fairly easy to make all bhallspawn die a certain way. Sarevok didn't disintergrate, you see his body in the video clip at the start all butchered up.

 

The "disintegration" animation when the PC dies is just an animation - there's no significance to it which explains why it's game over when (s)he dies. Death of the PC means game over because them's the rules.

IIRC, it's also game over when the PC gets mazed. Now that IS wrong.

 

IIRC, the game will also end if the PC is imprisoned, turned to stone, or if any stat is reduced to zero.

 

Correct, but all these conditions are death (or as good as). Maze just makes you disappear for a few minutes.

 

I've had my PC mazed without the game ending.

Could've been a patch or Baldurdash though, since I've never played without them.

 

Maze will only trap the target for a limited amout of time, thus no game over, unlike imprisonment, which will cast out the target forever, thus game over.

 

Although, maze will end the game if you're soloing. So will charm, confusion, or a number of other spells.

 

As was said, Imoen is the freak. It's not as much disintegration of body, as it is disintegration of soul. The bhaal-essence and your own soul are as one, one cannot exist without the other. The case with Sarevok is special in every way. Afterall, you are granting him a fraction of your essence to re-build him.

To simplify this more, whenever a bhaalspawn dies, the essence of bhaal is immediately gathered back to the Throne of Bhaal. Without this essence, no bhaalspawn can be resurrected. Otherwise it would create complications in gathering the essence, as every dead bhaalspawn would have to exist in some sort of a limbo where both their soul and the essence of bhaal would reside in case they would be resurrected. You can imagine what problems this would cause in the latter stages of the gathering of the essences of bhaal. It's a godly power afterall, one that can't just linger around like a mortal soul could. Think what happens to you when Irenicus drains you of almost all of your essence of bhaal. You begin to die. Had he drained you of all your essence, you would have died on the spot.

In terms of gameplay and off-game realism, though, the problem is in how much more complicated the game would have to be to allow for the player's death. There would have to be almost twice the amount of dialogue and new scripted events for the case where the protagonist was dead and the NPC's still tried to move on into important plot encounters. It's far easier to make the game work as a whole when you know there is one constant, one character, that is always around. Always aware of all things before, all things to come, and always the one thing to depend on in all sorts of encounters, fitting each and every dialogue perfectly.

 

But what then happens to your essence if you're imprisoned? It's game over, but your essence has no reason for leaving your body. Your party could easily go on and buy a scroll of Freedom (or just cast it if they have it).
I think this could have been done. The NPCs would in general not have to make any critical decisions. They just have to survive the fight without your supervision, go to the nearest shop that sells these things and come back. And maybe they die along the way. It doesn't all have to be animated. After all, you (the PC) can't see what they're doing. But maybe they could display some message like: In an effort to release you from imprisonment, the party died when facing ...

I also don't find it very realistic that all these status effects kill you if you solo. Sure, if you're charmed, you could very easily be killed. But let them kill me then. The charm itself isn't lethal. The same goes for some other effects that cause game over and especially maze. If someone casts maze on you, you will be removed from the battle for x rounds while you are perfectly safe where nobody can harm you. And then after that, you could just continue the fight. So why is that game over?

 

Rastor said "maze will end the game if you're soloing. So will charm, confusion, or a number of other spells."

Menion Leah said "I also don't find it very realistic that all these status effects kill you if you solo. Sure, if you're charmed, you could very easily be killed. But let them kill me then."

I've never soloed, but did Rastor mean that the game ends as soon as you are charmed? Or did he just mean that, if you're charmed, your game is basically over since you will be killed. In a non-solo game, the PC can be charmed without the death screen, so why would soloing be any different?