Where do we draw the line between LG and CE?

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This is nothing against lawful good people, but I just gotta ask: Where DO we draw the line? A paladin is lawful good, therefore he must ALWAYS at ALL TIMES follow the orders of his superiors. But what if the superior is corrupt? Don't tell me that they can overthrow it if he is proven evil, because how will he KNOW? No paladin will cast "The Sight" on another, it dishonors the one it is cast upon. No Paladin will challenge his superior, lest he look insubordinate. So he will he KNOW? A perfect example of this is represented by the whole novel of Thornhold, the conclusion to the harper's saga. In it, the "Zhent-owned Fallen Paladin" Gareth Cormaeril kept making the young paldin Algorind do bad shit, and he did not DARE accuse the older knight or cast "The Sight" on him, he would be dishonored. He tried to question an order and was rebuffed then started believing it was his own fault. Paladin's are like murderer's guilty of pride in big amounts. As demonstrated in Thornhold again, their quest was more important then the lives of ALL the people they ever loved. Paladins may think for themselves to an extent, beyond that they have a collective mind. If they are on the way to destroy a demon and need passage thru an elvish settlement, the elves would obviously tell them to go the long way around because of their distrust of humans. Whereas anyone else would've negotiated and compromised, the paladins ASSUMED that they were evil and decimated the village, as demonstrated again in Thornhold. Idealism is more dangerous than greed. mere greed defeats it itself in the end, but when a man fights for an idea, when he has determined "Who must live or die to make the world right" He has usurped the function of GOD. Isn't that what paladins do sometimes? When does it stop being Zealous worship and start becoming ruthless Fanaticism? Just a thought...so... just where DO we draw the line?

[This message has been edited by R'syil (edited April 19, 2001).]

 

I like the idea of Elizabeth Moons books about the farmer girl Paksenarrion who wanted to become a warrior and ended up as a paladin. The paladins there were not leaded by humans, but followed a god which they were dedicated to. The superior god lead his paladins in doing the lawful and right actions, nothing wrong. That is the way for a proper paladin to live.

[This message has been edited by Mollusken (edited April 19, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mollusken (edited April 19, 2001).]

 

Oh I don't doubt paladins accomplish a lot of good but you're missing the point, the situation i gave (actually happened) was when a SUPERIOR officer was corrupt, not the GOD. Paladins have too many notions about honor to question another, not the least of these a senior paladin and if a fellow senior paladin suspected, do you think he would really confront him about it? No, the usual and probably only way, until paladins wise up, that they catch corrupt paladins is through the interference of outsiders. At the middle of thornhol and at the end, Khelben warned his VERY good,close and old friend Piergeiron Paladinstar about Gareth. He ignored Khelben and even told him that though they were still friends he would never trust the harpers again.
"Do you want to hear the honest truth?"
"No. Not really"
"I've noticed... that people seldom do."
Khelben talking to Danilo Thann after trying to warn Piergeiron about sir Gareth, Thornhold

[This message has been edited by R'syil (edited April 19, 2001).]

 

A true paladin should automaticly know the difference between right and wrong, and should not be able to be controlled by other humans, even other paladins, in doing evil actions. But what you describe certainly is the dillema of the paladin, but I don't like your example where the paladin is lead by a superior human officer. That certainly is why your paladin is acting in wrong ways. A paladin should recieve his orders from an allmighty god (like the adicted CRPG player ), and when he is fully trained as a paladin, his mind, but not his body (even if that would have been nice), is protected from all evil.

 

Mollusk: Importuning your god for the divination spell to use against an officer that has just issued as a command is tanamount to insubordination, this ALONE would be enough for you to face the census and either be turned away or not made into a full paladin. Not everyone recieves orders from their deity. Hell, Mystra's elves hardly or have never seen her! My uncle told me so, and he's like 2000 years old! He was around when aunaroch was a forest! but seriously, paladins follow superiors and their deities confer (if ever) with said superiors, it is pretty much the same with every other sect. That's why these paladins are so messed up, and has ANYONE noticed the fact that this SAME "virtue" for never questioning anything that paladins need to become good paladins, is the SAME "virtue" that made the moonblade REJECT Elaith Craulnober, the biggest bad-ass in waterdeep. He used to be a good little soldier, the BEST soldier on evermeet..just like keldorn and THAT'S why he was Rejected?! Check out realms of infamy, you'll see I'm right...
"Make sure she learns the rules. And above all, teach her to qustion them"
-Elaith Craulnober to Arilyn about his daughters moonblade training

 

This kinda reminds me of planescapes artifact "tear of salieru-de" he died because he was so obediant to the harmonium that he didnt even question his superiors when they executed him for a crime he did not commit.

 

Well I wouldn't say Paladins were THAT stupid... but it does reinforce my point

 

Ah, the conflict between good and law in a lawful good character. i've wondered about this but never asked. I suppose Paladins have to assume that their superiors are in turn checked on by THEIR superiors/god. More generally, what would any lawful good character do if he was living in a tyrannical state where the laws were evil?

 

Look at the first part of the alignment. Lawful...they believe in working within the structure...but not blindly...they are guided by their laws so if the senior paladin or whomever breaks a sacred law...it's but kickin time.

 

but what is the law is against the good in a paladin? its ok to kill harlots because their evil, but they ARE people, what would a paladin do? which does he hold more dear? law or goodness?
or is the good side of a palidin decided BY the law?

 

How are harlots evil? It's the oldest profession!

I think there are degrees to everything. There's hardly ever a clear Good/Evil thing going on! The last one in memory would be Hitler and the Reich - Classic Good v. Evil!

 

the laws a paladin follows are inherently good...so if you break the law you are doing evil. Not necessarily societal laws but the laws of the faith are good in nature. Just a different way to look at it...I guess...

this is a great thread by the way

[This message has been edited by GONMAR (edited April 19, 2001).]

 

Hmmm, perhaps the definitions of Lawful and Good have some flexibility. Maybe Paladins from different areas of the realms have different ideas on the subject. We are looking at the conflict between what is lawful and what is good through biased eyes. The laws of a certain society, such as killing all harlots because they are evil, may be perfectly acceptable, but deemed abhorrent by another society.

Laws and Goodness are all relative. Look at Sir Belisarius, he cheers for the Flyers, where I come from that is evil and he'd be strung up by his toes until the playoffs were over .

[This message has been edited by Lord Moeken (edited April 20, 2001).]

 

they are guided by their laws so if the senior paladin or whomever breaks asacred law...it's but kickin time. <---
See, that was just my point! They follow quite blindly ASSUMING their superiors are on the level. As for other superiors checking them out, as i said, it would dishonor the one being tested for evil if it were cast at another paladin, no paladin in his right mind would do this. He wouldn't tell you, "kill her elven foster-parents and give her to me so I can hand her over to the zhents" He'd say something like "This quest is vital, she has been kidnapped, and you must slay the offenders and return her to ME, not the temple, there may be spies" This was done in Thornhold, and it worked. In the end, despite KHELBEN's accusations, Gareth got away scot-free and piergeiron moved away from Khelben. It would be INSANE for a younger paladin to try and disobey. That's what I was saying. They Don't know, because they have NO way of knowing.

 

I believe there is a perfect example of this in BG2. When you are asked to help out that landowner or whatever...When you talk to some of the people they tell you what's happening...I went against the paladin order for the better good. My superiors had enough faith in me to make the right decision.

The way a paladin would know if his superior was up to no good. Well through divine intervention...either through spells or through their God. They can detect evil...so if one of their compadres turns evil..they are instantly exposed. Paladin does not mean blind follower...a young paladin might be more easily swayed. However, that would be true for any younger warrior or mage. Just some ideas on how a Paladin could find out.

 

Paladin's only "feel" radiated evil if the person is someone EXTREMELY evil, like a priest of cyric (Thornhold.)Otherwise, they don't really. And like I said, the GODS don't just confer with everyone AND casting detect evil on a fellow paladin dishonors both you AND him, more HIM! ESPECIALLY if he is a man who is considered above suspicion. In Thornhold, as Hronulf of Tyr was dying, Dag Zoreth showed him who sold them out, and he STILL wouldn't believe it. They have no way of knowing until they are made to do an extremely obvious evil task, and sometimes it may even be disguised as a good task

 

R'syil, you're assuming the novel is 100% faithful to the AD&D paladin. I have the novel and the Paladin's handbook (though not with me at the moment), and Paladins DO question orders. If they receive an order they don't like, they don't obey it, for the superior betrayed the code first. The order of rank/control/etc. for a Paladin is: 1. the god's commands. 2: the paladin's beliefs, 3: Superior officers, church hierarchy, etc. If they receive an order that violates their god's tenets or their beleifs, they don't follow it, because the superior isn't considered worthy anymore, etc. etc.

Bottom line: they DON'T blindly follow orders. Unless, of course, their god is the one giving the orders to them directly

 

I can see your point, and it is indeed valid, but in the instance I'm naming, it's not like he said "Slaughter this village" it's more like asking a Paladin to "rescue this little girl, her foster parents are tainted", that would be more believable. One of the paladin tenets is obedience, so he would have to carry this task out right away and it SEEMS alright. This is what I was saying. Unless it was OBVIOUSLY evil, how would they know? "Save a girl", "Slay a demon" basic calls to a paladin..

 

It has been a while since I read Thornhold, but weren't the foster parents/guardians Zhents? As for the knight giving him orders being evil... well, do you expect paladins to see if their superiors have evil intent every time they get an assignment? It's sort of like the cops needing to get a warrant before they search your home. Unless you have a reason to suspect someone, why question seemingly innocent orders? Especially since your superior probably earned his rank, through great deeds and valor on the field of battle.IIRC, the knight in Thornhold had absolutely no reason to distrust what the other knight was telling him (little did he know...). You make a good point. There sometimes just isn't any way to tell if someone deserves your trust or not. Trial and error is the only solution Well, maybe an annual inquisition would work too. Then you only have to worry about infiltrators in the ranks of the inquisitors. Hmm, sounds like one of those problems without an easy solution.

 

Yeah, that WOULD be a nice, neat little solution, if only the paladins could overcome that honor-pride thing, neh?