Using prior knowledge: wisdom or cheesedom?

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What are people's opinions on pre-preparing for battles where you know what the enemies are going to be beforehand (mainly because you've played the game so many times that it holds no surprises)?

Examples:

• Casting Death Ward when you know your enemies will be using death magic.
• Setting traps where you know that enemies will spawn.
• Summoning elementals and Mordenkainen's swords when you know that enemies will spawn.
• Casting True Sight when you know that there will be enemy thieves with invisibility potions.
• Setting traps around non-hostile golems because you know that they're going to go hostile as soon as you open some chest.
• Using Wizard Eye to scout out enemies that you know are lurking unseen.

My personal opinion is that it's quite acceptable to do this, for a number of reasons:

• You wouldn't ignore previously garnered knowledge in any other game, such as Super Mario Sunshine, so why do so in BG2?
• Some enemies (e.g. Kangaxx) are unbeatable unless you already know how to defeat them. Kangaxx doesn't give you the opportunity to try out different strategies.
• Much pre-preparation can even be justified from a roleplaying perspective. Given your characters' experiences, you might expect them to gain a certain sixth sense when it comes to enemy spawning and suchlike.
• Setting traps around non-hostile golems is plain good sense. They're mindless constructs: you can moon them and pull faces at them, so why not set a trip wire at their feet?

I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

[ November 01, 2003, 15:50: Message edited by: Chris Williams ]

 

Generally speaking, I make advance preparations only if I know that not to do so would result in my death, thus having to reload and forcing me to do the preparations anyway. As to some of your specifics:

-"Setting traps where you know that enemies will spawn" - cheesey IMO since you may know this as a player, but your character doesn't know it.
-"Summoning elementals and Mordenkainen's swords when you know that enemies will spawn" - ditto.
-"Casting True Sight when you know that there will be enemy thieves with invisibility potions" - ditto. However, the game cheats here also, since enemy mages are also constantly casting True Sight when they have no good reason to do so. One could argue that they do it regularly just as a precaution, but that would mean they'd have to have a lot of True Sights memorised.
-"Setting traps around non-hostile golems because you know that they're going to go hostile as soon as you open some chest" - Golems are stupid, and therefore, unlike other not-yet-hostile enemies, would not become suspicious if you set traps around them. You could argue that traps are a wise precaution.
-"Using Wizard Eye to scout out enemies that you know are lurking unseen" - scouting is what the spell is for, but if you use it only where you know there are enemies, IMO it's cheesy. I use my thieves for scouting anyway.

Your justifications:
-"You wouldn't ignore previously garnered knowledge in any other game, such as Super Mario Sunshine, so why do so in BG2?" - how dare you compare BG2 to other games?
-"Some enemies (e.g. Kangaxx) are unbeatable unless you already know how to defeat them. Kangaxx doesn't give you the opportunity to try out different strategies" - agreed; see my opening comment.
-"Given your characters' experiences, you might expect them to gain a certain sixth sense when it comes to enemy spawning and suchlike" - except that the game doesn't actually give them this sixth sense.

[ November 01, 2003, 16:55: Message edited by: Splunge ]

 

cheese or strategy?

really depends on the player and what they're aiming for

if (for instance) you're running around with a low level thief who struggles with random bandit encounters - then you use any way you can to stay alive, cheese or no cheese (erm... that would be me)

so it really helps that you already know your enemy and can prepare beforehand (and come out of the fight with 3 hit points) instead of dying midway

 

From a role-playing perspective, I beleive it is certainly acceptable.

You and Imoen grew up in a library, and both of you were probably certain that you both would become adventurers once grown (though I haven't played BG1, so I don't know if that is embedded in the storyline), and without a doubt the most interesting books in the library were the books written by Volo and Elminster, writing about how to defeat certain creatures in certain situations.

 

I think that it is cheesy to lay traps where you know enemies will spawn, because though "you" might know they will be there, the monsters were likely supposed to be a surprise for your PC's and NPC's.

Summoning elementals and M. Swords when you know there will be enemies spawned may or may not be cheap in my opinion. My characters often have at least 2 summoned creatures with them at all times in a dungeon (or other place of adventure), but to summon them just because of your prior knowledge is cheesy.

Use your prior knowledge only while in battle, as a strategic advantage, because your characters would likely not anticipate every enemy ambush, but might become adept at dealing with them.

 

i perosnaly think it is totally acceptable and almost necessary in some places(kangaxx,maybe dragons,irenicus,bodhi)
it is knowledge learned from experoence, not cheating(hopefully)

 

It isn't great roleplaying to take advantage of knowledge you have, but your character couldn't have.

However, I don't think the game was supposed to be played without reloading once. If it was, then it would be a boring game, because it'd be to easy. The idea would be that you (the player) learns from previous experiences and uses knowledge from the fight he just lost (or has played a dozen of times), to win.

 

This harkens back to a similar post on things being cheesy. As was pointed out there by several people, everyone engages in some amount of cheese after their first play-through of the game. I am generally of the opinion that I will not memorize specific spells before certain battles unless I am certain that by not doing so, I will die. If the goal is to play the game, repeatedly trying a tactic that simply does not work, and dying over and over again, is not roleplaying, it's simply stupid.

That having been said, yes I think it is necessary to go into the battle against Kangaax (spelled wrong but I forget the right way), dragons, and other chapter bosses fully prepared. I also see no problem setting traps at the feet of golems. Like you said, golems aren't trained to respond to people setting traps at their feet, so it is completely reasonable that you could do this without the golem doing anything about it.

Some of the other stuff is kind of cheesy. I have no problem with memorizing a summoning spell, and casting it at the onset of battle, but I do have a problem with pre-emptively casting it at a location where the enemies are going to spawn. Same thing with pre-battle spells. I have no problem casting them as soon as the enemy is seen, but pre-emptively is cheesy. Hell, it's your game, do whatever you find most enjoyable. It really comes down to how much roleplaying experience you want to get from the game.

 

The key to non-cheese is (IMO) roleplaying, and staying In Character (IC it is called).

When you (the player) knows what's going to happen, always look through the eyes of your character. And of course, consider all that he's seen until now.

It is quite possible, to guess plenty upcoming fights. (not all naturaly). Just see all the clues set on your way to it.

Warning though... roleplaying comes to mind here. If you're playing a dwafven berserker with 3 intelligence you just cant know IC (in character) that you're gonna fight a dragon, no matter what kind of a great or huge clue you get. Mostly intelligence counts here, smaller part - wisdom.

But it's quite hard to do that, once you've played through the whole game couple of times, and know all that will come to pass in the next hour or so.


So.. IMO all the previously (from the topic creator) can be done non-cheesy. If you posses experiences, and knowledge naturaly

 

not cheesy, how are you supposed to forget what you know

 

Depends on what type of dungeon you're in also. Yer going into a crypt, there's probably going to be undead - undead ward.
You're going to face that big nasty red dragon and you know he's there because you've talked to him, proection from fire, equip dragon-slaying equipment, cast spells before going in.
There's a golem and there's a chest in a room... not hard to discern that if you open that chest the golem isn't going to ask if you want paper or plastic.
You're walking on a giant spiderweb bridge and you've just fought an ettercap, ready cure/slow poision spells.
Consider the enviroment first. Most will have some form of tell-tale sign of what type of enemies you're going to encounter.

 

If you're playing a rogue, you have to think like a rogue, and only then you MIGHT become a rogue... if you live long enough.

Meaning, you have to exploit every weakness YOU find to survive. Don't be ashamed after doing something considered exploitation, be proud because you succeed in it.

Like Eddie & Chavo Guerrero in WWE Raw would say: "Lie, cheat, steal."

"You take my Mark 4 thieves toolkit, and then are dumb enough to show it to me?!" -Chief Thief (Quest for Glory IV - Shadows of Darkness)

 

After a couple of plays through, i find that it's almost impossible to not prepare for upcoming battles in one way or another. While i make sure i don't specially equip weapons or spells because of what i knows ahead. If i come to a room where i know theres going to be a battle, i'll make sure im prepared by healing and the like. It would be foolish not to. It's almost imposible to stay IC all the time. (Killing sprees are so rewarding )

 

Cheesedom!

I would like to think that I don't prepare too much ahead of time. I nearly always have my thief scouting ahead in all dungeons/corridors etc, so I can usually tell if someone is there. I will then ready my team with standard defensive spells and make a suitable attack. If scouting then you can usually tell how many mages, cleric, fighters, etc. If my thief gets spotted then I run and try and duke it out as best I can.

I won't however, go into a room already prepared (even if I know what's in there), unless my thief could have realistically scouted there before.

The trick does seem to be having a diverse selection of spells, classes and weapons.

This is just my way. It seems more role-playing that way. I try to think of it as PnP D&D, and treat it that way as much as possible.

I like to think my character and party can take on anything. When they get their butts kicked I then get fed-up and build a new party.

 

To be fair, I think most people might change a weapon or quick item after losing a battle, before trying it again. If we're going to say things like summoning is cheesy, then maybe switching wands is also, and some of the powerful defensive spells have such a short duration you almost have to know what's coming to use them. And for those of us who haven't run through the entire game first time without reloading ever, we're probably drawing on knowledge we don't even realize. Don't ask where I was going...I don't remember...

 

To further Menion Leah and Aldeth's point, it's kinda hard NOT to use previous knowledge.

Consider this: You are going through the game, without using your past experience. You come across a big battle unprepared and die. So you reload.

Then you do the same thing, supposedly not knowing about that big battle, you die again. And the stubborn cycle starts again.

Now say you're sick of dying and reloading and decide to buff up or "scout ahead so I realize I need to buff up". But then you're cheating because your character isn't supposed to know about the big fight beforehand (despite being revived several times).

Sure you can argue that your character suddenly felt the need for extra preparation, but is that a pure, RPG In-Character decision or just the (frustrated) player learning from the past?

 

my 2 cents...

if your character is a high intellegance mage/theif, then he could go invisible scout ahead see who and what lies ahead, go back and tell the rest o the party and can then go in prepared.
But as for ambushes there is no way to anticipate every one of them and what you are against without prior knowledge, unless you have some way to justify it to yourself by saying your Bhaal "powers" gave you a short foresight into the future.

The above argument really could justify it because you have the blood of Bhaal in you for god's sake, and Bhaal foresaw his own death in the time of trouble's which is the whole reason charname was ever created by Bhaal, if he diden't see the future there would simply be no Charname and no Bauldurs Game. The point I am trying to make is that Bhaal forsaw his own death and you are one of his children, so since you have some special Bhaal powers, then why not the ability to detect ambushes shortly before it happens?

And also if you play a Paladin or your cleric('s) are casting detect evil spells they will sense any ambushes and have a rough Idea of where they are waiting in ambush.

But besides all this your party becomes very powerful and get's some equally powerful equipment. any party that lives long enough to get that powerful would nearly always have the right sops (standard operating proceedures) such as item's sequencer's contingencies, etc, to at least give them enough of a chance to retaliate properly and hopefully overcome the ambush.

phew, 2 cents worth? more like $1 worth

Anyone else think this is logical?
Or am I raving again?

Never mind I just read over my post and realised I'm only talking ****

[ November 28, 2003, 20:25: Message edited by: casey ]

 

It probably depends on the circumstances.
For example, summoning a bunch of monsters in the middle of a busy town because you know you're about to be attacked by bandits is bad. Your character just wouldn't do that.

However, arming yourself up before entering a cave is more acceptable. Even though your characters don't know there's a big dragon waiting inside, it would be a safe bet that there might be something dangerous, so preparations can be justified.

So, if there is some reason why your characters might suspect something bad is about to happen, then they could reasonably be expected to prepare. If there is no clue to the imminent danger, it's unrealistic.

Of course, if you have to reload repeatedly because you have to tool up beforehand or die, then it's OK. As long as you feel a little guilty about it afterwards.

EDIT- OK, here's the ultimate justification.
Every time you reload a game, that's not just on the computer- it actually happens in Faerun. The Gods rewind time, placing you back before whatever went wrong happened.
Your character, of course, is unaware of this, but they may have a faint memory of the other timeline locked up in their subconscious, manifesting itself as Deja Vu or a nagging thought at the back of your mind.
A character experiencing such a feeling may therefore feel worried enough by it to prepare for imminent danger, even if there is no other apparent reason to do so.

 

Since everyone else is, I'll add my spare change to the pot (pardon the bad analogy).

IMO unless you are playing the game ironman style, that is to say not saving or loading, then you will always have knowledge of what is to come. So what if I knew before starting battle with Kangaxx for the third or forth time what kind of weapons to have ready. That is what is expected to be done.

And incidentaly, there are areas that have enemies that are different every time you go. I found that this makes the game more excitng. If anyone is looking for a good idea for a mod, how about one that changes minor enemies species, numbers and location and also changes the big guys' locations. A sort of game refresher so to speak.

PS. Pardon the babble. There is a point in there somewheres, I'm sure.

 

Is this sarcasm or a bad joke, or are you actually serious?

As for the idea of having a nagging thought or feeling in the back of your mind I have personally known a person in the Military who can testify to the fact of sometimes just having a hunch or a gut feeling tipping them off to some ambush or such about to take place without having any proper reasons to belive so been the only reason for him been alive today.