Traps and role playing

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I've seen several people at other forums and boards express the opinion that useing traps to kill non- responsive or "blue" NPCs is bad role playing or some kind of glitch.

Does anyone agree?

As far as golems, they don't notice anything unless triggered by the event they where "programed" to respond too. Thats part of the magic of their creation.
And the dragon in the temple, well you have the stone that prevents him from detecting you. Sounds like a improved invisibility almost...or at least something akin to being protected from evil around a gated demon...
I know in the first instance I would definatly allow it as a DM. I know it seems just way too easy, but having the right tool can make any job easy. Would traping the hallways and baiting the golems across it be any better RP than just putting a pile in front of them? Doesn't seem like it too me.

Also, casting magic resistance to lower an oponents natural resistance. It's not a bug or glitch, it's well within the definitions of the spell...and given the fact that everything in these darn games worth mentioning has insane MR, something that only major demons and god-like stuff had in AD&D second edition had to the best of my memory....maybe you should have to make a roll to cast MR on an opponent, but it's clearly not a party only spell

Just because it's easy doesn't mean it's an exploit.

Whats your opinion?

 

I've gotta agree with Jester about traps. Having been up against all the liches and most recently Kangaxx, especially Kangaxx, I know the value of a good trap (or 2, or 3, or 8).

Though the other liches can certainly be dealt with without resorting to Sunray, False Dawn, trap setting, Protection from Magic scroll, etc. Kangaxx is another problem entirely. Because as past posts on him have indicated, he cheats -- has far more imprisonment spells available than the manual suggests -- fairly badly.

When I faced him the first time, I had Nalia with the recently acquired Staff of the Magi juiced up with Tenser's transformation and Protection from Magic scroll. Imoen had Melf's Minute Meteors for a while then Gesen Bow (which could do some damage). Kangaxx's focus was on the protected Nalia so she was ok. After a while Kangaxx went from Badly injured to Near Death, I was feeling pretty good about things until Nalia's Tenser's Transformation wore off , she began hitting far less frequently and only doing 1 pt per hit, as did Imoen's Gesen bow shots.

The problem was, I forgot about Kangaxx's wonderful ring, regenerating one hp every 2 seconds. I realized I was fighting a losing battle when his tag rolled back to Badly Injured. I did not have another +4 weapon to whack him, and was out of Melf's Minute Meteors, so I was stuck. Even two conjured Fire Elementals with Improved Invisibility who were imprisoned, freed, and then imprisoned again, couldn't finish the job.

So, I reloaded, followed some advice I'd heard about trapping his initial form at the base of the sarcophagus, and then using ring of ram to fling demi-lich form onto another set of traps in the west corner of the room.

My point, what's the point of having a thief with set traps abilities if you cannot use them effectively.

 

Your right that just because something is easy does not mean its cheating. But placing traps all around the Shadow Dragon and then resting and doing it all over again is. Even placing a few traps could be taken as a exploit as the Dragon would not see you but would see a whole bunch of trip wires all around him.

As for Kangaxx, he's pretty easy. The Flame Tongue can hurt him as can the +5 sling. I think that that the Daystar can also hurt him but I'm not sure. You could also grab Keldorn and The Holy Avenger. The Bolt of Glory would also be effective.

I would not consider all of Kangaxx's Imprisonment spell's to be cheating. He is a vastly powerful Lich that must have been at a extremly high level. Maybe when he wears his own ring it gives him unlimited spells. Anyway I don't think that you can warrent cheating just because an enemy does.

Also how did you free the two imprisomned Fire Elementals? Unless you had some Freedom scrolls then you were cheating. So you were fighting pretty much even, if you consider Kangaxx a cheater.

 

well, I only used one set of traps as I actually wanted to have some fun brawling him but wanted to soften him up a bit. I also assume everyone would get bored with camping next to a shadow dragon in a bare little room for a week. Yes...I know it's just a game...at least I know that theoretically(sp)
and, well, the dragon was looking the other way while I set up traps

 

As far as I know, Kangaxx has no limit of imprisonment spells (I mindcontrolled him in a game). So I think he has it as a special ability (cant remember really, because I didn't really wanted to imprison anybody). But there wasn't a certain amount number, as the other mages have

 

The game is about strategy and using your abilities (and your player's as well) to accomplish the most appropriate ends for your party.

As for the battle with Kangaxx, before I decided to reload and start using traps, I'd tried Daystar and in his demilich form it did not work either in normal to hit or Sunray ability. Oh and Minsc's berserking did not prevent imprisonment either. The fire elementals I did conjure only lasted one hit before they were imprisoned. Yes, I did have a freedom scroll to get them out of jail, but again, one round later, back they went.

And, please, do not say that Kangaxx (demi-lich) is easy, i.e. if you are not using traps.

 

i only know one place where u can get Freedom scrolls... thats in Underdark from that trader in the south.... he has bout 5 i think... so if u got it from there...its not cheating

 

Oh, come on ppl.
I mean what's fun bout killin 5 dragons without actiall combat. That's almost as lame as casting cloudkill and then standing out of the site of the dragon.

About the shadow dragon: it IS bad for roleplaying doing that, since the even if the dragon can't see you teh traps should trigger nomatter of the hostileness of it.
About the lower resistance thing i don't get what do you mean. nobody has said that using LR is a cheat, or bug.
And coz it's easy does mean it's an exploit (noone would wanna make a too easy game, since too easy=NotInteresting=boring)
@Aferon de Caland- everyone know the value of traps. And about KangaXX he doesn't cheat. he is just a lich. he is not a humanoid. There are ways of killing him without cheating.


Conclusion: Play the game however you want, just don't post messiges afterwords that the game is easy!!! I'm sick of reading how easy it is and that it's not a challange.Cheesy tacktics like traps setting are what makes those comments and if I see another post saying BG2 is too easy, I'll post a new topic on how to play BG2 so it's NOT easy!

 

I can't pass this nor resist to spam here...

Vicsun, even I would't say that conclusion so perfect as you did. Consider yourself credited from me (as long as you don't mention cheating...).

 

As to the spell "Lower Resistance" It does have a verbal component (hence the mage has to speak to cast the spell) As a Shadow dragon has 17-18 in intelligence (see MonstrousManual) As a DM I would make it fly away if or use its breath weapon in the direction of the sound. But if You just would let it stand still Jester1137 then ok. There is a rule saying the DM is always right. Perhaps all Of Your dragons are deaf. Who knows
But I still think is is a "bug" "defect" whatever to be able to cast spells in front of a dragon.
Please use this link to make Your dragon fights more realistic=moreInterestin=funny (this sentence was dedicated to Vicsun)
http://members.home.net/mrkevvy/fixes.html

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited May 24, 2001).]

 

There is no lower resistance cheat, the cheat is using the spell Magic Resistance to lower the dragon's magic resistance to the level of the spell. The problem with this is that the spell Magic Resistance counts as friendly magic, so it doesn't get resisted or saved against.

Traps - If there is a legitimate means of not being detected, and reason to believe a trap would be useful, use them. They make sense against a golem. If you expect to be attacked, putting one in the area you are likely to defend seems reasonable. I have never fought a dragon yet, so I don't know about that, though if I had a means of not being detected, I might place some out of line of sight of the dragon, but not more than a day's worth of them. (Adventurers wouldn't be that patient)

But I definitely agree with the sentiment that complaining that a game is too easy is stupid, and beside the point really. When you have the right elements in place a combat may become easy, but if you are caught off guard, you wind up dead. I've found that in many of the combats on the Planar Sphere, it would be die, die, easy, as I tried different battle plans, or just got lucky.

But basically, it is just a game, and you should play it however it is fun for you to play it. It is a fairly flexible game and you are the one who makes the final choice about what methods you want to use.

 

They really should do something about the way the dragon walks. Im sick of seeing it waddle towards me like a duck.(maybe allow it to fly )

 

To all those saying anyone was "complaining" about the game being to easy....that sure wasn't the intention. There are certain situations where a frequently useless special ability or spell used correctly makes a hard fight a cake walk. Thats how it works I'm just saying that making USE of those abilities isn't cheating or bad RP.
And yes, it does have a somantic component...But that amulet has a permenant "vocalize effect" which as I recall removes the verbal component...anyway, as I was saying I think the person casting it on a non-party character should at the very least have to make a too hit roll, I was just kind of thinking about how it would play out in P&P.

I can't remmember the name of the spell right now, but it's a cleric buff that re-sets the recipients strength to 18, even if it was Higher to start with. I have allowed that to be used against giants in P&P but required a succesful too hit and allowed a save.

 

IF a mage wears the Amulet of Power making his verbal-spell component dissapear, then it would be a different matter of course. In PnP this specific example would end in DM pondering obout wheter or not a dragon can feel its resistance beeing weakened. This is a most individual matter.

As for the spell it is "strenght of One" I think You mean. according to the spelldiscription the god of the caster allows him and his friends strenght to battle victoriously. Your cleric's god had been able to redirect this "power" to an evil creature. Thats Your call You are the DM.

I agree the creature should be able to make a save against the effects. But It is up to Your imagination to explain how the powers given by the casters god, should come in effect. IF You say it should be done by touch. Then it is by touch.

My opinion is that only in rare occasions the God will change the effects of the powers he allows his followers (hence most often only allowed to cast Strenght of One on Your own party) And If allowed I would not make a THACH0 roll nescesarry. The God hits for the caster. And they never fumble

I Can recommend the "Legends and Lore" book if You play DM in PnP. It will give Your clerics a great lift.

 

I was having a blast trapping the crap out of stuff in my first go at BGII until it suddenly dawned on me that if my trap killed the critter, I got no XP for it. I personally think that ought to be fixed. Assuming my thief is smart enough to build a little anti-monster gauntlet and then lead someone down it, I think he should get the XP credit for wiping out the bad guy. Maybe I'm just whining.

 

The patch fixes that, pre-patch the traps would "de-tach" from your party
I only ever use one days worth of traps, just because it keeps it interesting for me

 

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