This is going to be VERY interesting

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No matter what your stance is on the upcoming war in Iraq, you've got to agree it's going to be interesting to see this play out.

I'm wondering how people here will react IF this turns out to be a success for the US and it's allies.

What if?

What if they DO find WMD in Iraq? What if the people of Iraq end up NOT fighting like cats and dogs to protect Saddam and his administration? What if some of them actually WELCOME regime change in Iraq?

I am going to be very interested in reading posts on this board after this is over and done with. How many of the people who are strongly opposed to this war going to react if history proves them to be wrong? What if they are right?

I remember reading all of the posts here after September 11th. Mainly I remember all of the people opposed to the US doing ANYTHING in Afghanistan...How it would start WW3, how millions of people would die. How terrorist attacks would increase. How the Afghans would fight to the last man, and never let a new government take power. They were proven, for the most part, completely wrong. I for one am thankful that they were.

I for one am excited about all of this. I don't mean to sound insensitive. I'm not happy about the blood that will be shed in the days ahead. However, this IS history being made. For better or for worse it's going to be interesting.

"may you live in interesting times"
ancient Chinese curse

 

I find it interesting from the standpoint we are seeing history being made.

 

Absoutely!

I just got off of the phone with my best friend who lives out in California. And our entire conversation was about how an incredible historic event is about to take place. More historic than many people think or understand.

 

If they don't find WMD, they will place them there, just like nazis did in 1939 in order to justify their attack against Poland. If they find them, so what? Is Iraq the only state, which has chemical weapons? Is it the only state, which is ruled by a dictator? Is it the only state, which violates UN resolutions?

What will you say (and most important, what will the U.S. and U.K. goverments will say) if they don't find weapons of mass destruction? How they are going to justify the deaths? Will they withdraw their forces immediatelly and accept UN sanctions for an uprovoked attack? Will they accept that their leaders are war criminals and therefore they have to face a trial?

 

People like you and me die in war, and if the whole country is destroyed then it leads to a whole bagload of problems. I hope that you never see war, you probably wouldn't like it.

I find it appalling that people can't talk about "war in Iraq" so coldly, like it's some kind of Sunday afternoon picnic. Old women and children will die because of this war, and I hope that the people who cause it are taken to task for it. I can't express my disgust...

I truly hope that war never reaches the US because people there (unless they migrated) have no concept of the misery that the US administration causes other nations in the name of "freedom, justice and the American Way"...

 

I don't think anything would happen, I mean entering Iraq just for finding WMS is just an excuse for trying to huntdown/banish Saddam. Finding WMS isn't the only reason Bush goes to war, Saddam had this coming for a long time I think, and that's excuse enough for going to war.

If I had to chose between Bush or Saddam I would gladly go to war against Saddam.

 

Llandon, the sad thing about the war in Iraq and what preceded it is that I dont know if I can trust whatever things they find there after the war. The US goverments insistance on war no matter what makes me doubt whatever they find, it is very easy to falsify evidence and witnesses. So I am certain that they will find all kinds of WMD's, plenty of witnesses speaking about horrible atrocities commited by Saddam and his cronies but for me there will always be doubts if that is true or not. That I think is very sad, that no matter if Saddam had a bunch of WMD's or not we will be presented with evidence that he had. I certainly hope that what evidence they are going to find is true because if it was not it would be even more horrible but there is no way for us to know and the current US administration has not given me any reason to believe that they are above such things.

 

I never knew that Europe was so full of people that were so cynical toward government. When I say government, I mean all governments! Most of you seem to not trust your own government to tell you the truth. I believe that most of the people who post to this forum live in countries with some form of representative governments. You elect these people; so stop electing people you don’t trust!

The other side of this coin that Europeans don’t seem to get is; with all of the public sentiment against this war, why are most of the European leaders going along with it? It is political suicide. Perhaps they know something that the rest of us do not? We elect officials to represent us and our best interests. Sometimes what we want is not what is best for us. It is a little like a child. Even when they are old enough to know that candy is not good for them, they will still choose it over healthier foods because they just don’t understand the ramifications of their choices. The politicians receive information that simply cannot be released to the public. We have to trust that they will make the best decisions for us based on this in these cases. If they are not doing this we must, when the issues are declassified or otherwise made public, vote them out of office and replace them with those who will follow our wishes and best interests.

 

You can never really trust a goverment, that is one of the bases of democracy and why we have re-elections. I have to admit though that I trust the US goverment less than most other democratic goverments simple because the very or total lack of opposition and that when it comes to foreign policies the US goverment is very powerful and can do more or less at it please. Mostly due to a media that is *very* benign towards it goverment and only one large camp of opposition that tends to not disagree too much with the sitting goverment.

 

But what if Iraq has WMD:s and uses them against their neighbours and US troops when they see that the battle is lost? Would USA then have done the right thing by attacking Iraq?
Would it be worth millions of human lives?

 

joacqin,

I am sorry, but some of what you have stated just isn't true.

The level of debate in the US regarding foreign policy (and all other policy) is at such a high level that it is amazing that we even have a foreign policy. Between the Pelosi/Daschle led democrats, the Bush/Powell republicans, and a department of state that is terrified of offending any nation we effectively cripple ourselves in our ability to come up with sound foreign policy.

The US media is very critical of the government’s foreign policy, or any other policies for that matter. It is a normal course for the US media to give time to so called experts to criticize the government, and provide no time for a rebuttal from the government.

Sorry, but you are falling for the propaganda that is spread across Europe about the US. It just isn't the way you see it.

 

Darkwolf has a point, Joaquin. There is plenty of opposition in the American political system -- heck, the whole system is based on checks and balances, right? It's clear you don't like America, and you even have some good reasons, but the American government is hardly some sort of a dictatorship.

I know the Americans have lied in the past, and so I do take what they say with a grain of salt, but that doesn't mean that every word out of their mouths is a lie.

 

I did not say it was some sort of dictator ship. What I was saynig that compared to the other western democracies the US *do* lack serious opposition, come on, two large parties that alternative in power both based on liberal economical thinking. The only erally big differences are in some issues and small grade differences but generally they have the same philosphy. Republican foreign policy and democratic foreign policy is not very different. Clinton was involved in atleast as much troubles abroad as Bush II has been the only difference is that he handled it smoother and managed to not upset that many.
Considering the media it is too extremely goverment friendly compared to most European states. All american news programs and documentaries I have seen considering foreign policy has been seriously one eyed, true they might bring up small things they critize alittle but they are often small and of no real consequence. I remember seeing one interview in 60 minutes with Yassir Arafat and a more biased interview I have never seen, the interviewer already knew what he thought and what he wanted out of this interview and completely ignored anythnig that did not deal with the mad men that blow themselves to bits on according to the interviewer Arafats order. Not a single mention of Israeli atrocities and when Arafat tried to bring it up a commenter came in and more or less mocked his words. Arafat may be a big jerk but that is not for the interviewer or the program to decide on beforehand.

I have nothing against the nation of USA, there are many aspects of its culture that I dont like just as there are many aspects of Swedish culture I dont like. I am not too fond of the general American political policy on most issues just as I am not fond of much of what France, Spain or Sweden are doing. The main difference is that it doesnt really matter to anyone outside Sweden what the Swedish goverment do while everything the US do seriously affects me.

 

joacqin, you have got to be kidding me!

Please, I beg of you justify how you can call republican economics "liberal", especially given that you live is a socialist country! That is idiotic!

That is because Clinton appeased every dictator he met. Hell, he sold nuclear secrets to the Chinese for his own re-election fund! He did nothing but give money to the N. Koreans. He all but ignored the attack on the Cole and our embassies. If he had been stronger on foreign policy, we wouldn't be having this discussion

You have obviously not seen the nightly news on any of the big 3 networks in America. They BASH the government on a regular basis, especially if it is a Republican controlled government. Documentaries are for snivelers who don't want to read, and want an entire issue boiled down to 30 minutes. The idiots who watch these things only will watch them if the confirm what they already know, so they are inherently biased, else the unwashed masses will not watch them.

You are so right here, I am so tired of the Israelis strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up buses full of Egyptian and Jordanian children (there is no such thing as a Palestinian, they are all descendants of other nations in the region). Oh wait, it is the other way around! The Arabs will not be happy until the Jews are out of the Middle East. Israel has every right to defend herself, and no responsibility to come to the negotiation table until the Arabs stop killing Israelis.

You have nothing against the US as long as we spend our money and use our military as you see fit, just like the rest of socialist Europe. I am sorry, but you are obviously as anti-American as anyone posting here, and it shows. It is amazing how socialist euros can defend heinous dictators, and condemn the US. The fact is that you all cannot stand the fact that the world does not revolve around Europe, and you are doing your best to level the playing field. I would probably do the same in you shoes. It would be nice if you would try to raise yourselves to our level instead of trying to pull us down to yours. But then there is no mechanism for that, the EU is already broken, and the UN is firmly in place. Guess it is easier to use anti-Americanism instead of pro-Europeanism

 

I think the most interesting thing about this is how much Blair has put in terms of his future career on this. If he does not find WMD in Iraq, he will probably have to resign. The anti-war protests over here about a month or so ago were the biggest in British history. There's also the fact that one member of his cabinet has already resigned... Things are going to get interesting, for sure. Not necessarily pleasant, but interesting.

 

Apeman

The dillema is not Bush or Saddam. It is international law (every country has to follow some rules) or Pax Americana (the country with the strongest military can act as it wishes without consequences)

Darkwolf

Well I find it very amusing to hear this from an american, since U.S.A is probably the most multinational country of the world. (Schwarzkopf=German, Ducakis=Greek, Bush=English, etc.). The next quote is just for your information on Palestinians. If you want to read the whole article, here is the link.

By the way, I'm also tired of the palestinian tanks and aircrafts, which level down the israeli cities, while the israeli children try to face them with stones.

 

BOC,

I guess the Jews should just pack up and head back to wherever they came from huh? Since they are not allowed to defend themselves against terrorists.

What makes Israel’s stance higher than the Arabs is that they are not intentionally targeting children. They are trying to eliminate terrorists, and unfortunately there is collateral damage. If the Arabs would come to the bargining table in earnest, without their demands being that the Jews leave completely, Israel would be forced to negotiate in good faith by the international community. The problem is that the Arabs just could not live with that they want the Jews out of Muslim "holy lands".

 

Darkwolf, do you not see that your own replies are based on the very goverment friendly media I am speaking about? No wonder you think what you do as it is all you hear and see, the American media have no interest in showing you the full picture ever, they are satisfied with showing the goverment supported reality so that you are assured to think the right thoughts and have the right opinions.

I wonder what you know of economics and of political history if you can think that the republicans do not follow a liberal economic philosphy, they are actually more liberal when it comes to economics than the democrats. Get some knowledge please before you post, it will do you good.

 

Darkwolf
Palestinians want a free state in their territory, they have never said that Israelis must abandon their country.Have you ever think that the suicide bombers are their only weapon since they don't have tanks and airforce? Don't misunderstand me, I certainly don't approve attacks against civilians and especially against women and children but just think what would you do if you were a palestinian.

This is off topic, if you want to continue the debate upon this issue, maybe we should do it in a new thread.

 

Darkwolf -- I agree with you that the media is powerful in shaping the public's opinion. Be careful that they don't lead you believe that Europe is against America. Most are not. They don't agree with us on the war, but many there are still our friends. Our media would make you believe otherwise.
During the early stages of Vietnam, the media was all for what we were doing. As it dragged on some in the media began to speak against the war. During that time the protestors were in the minority. As oppostion to the war grew in the media, public opinion began to change. In fact some conservatives complained that the war was declared over by the news anchormen. As long as the media is behind Shurb, public opinion will be on his side. If the media begins to speak out against the war . . . .
Your take on Bill Clinton is very harsh. Many in the world consider him a peacemaker. Don't believe that if a leader wants peace that he is just an appeasor. Hitler used such rhetoric on those who finally had the courage to end WWI. He called them criminals. And used those who wanted peace as an example of traitors against Germany.