The ultimate Kensai - the Armament issue

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IMO kensais are generally best described as light agile unarmored fighters with maximum punch and maximum vulnerability. Now the question that remains is how to make best use of the punch the kensai offers - that is using a heavy weapon like a 2hd sword with low initiative? Or a katana or an l'sword or b'sword singlehanded? Or dualwielding two weapons?

Personally I recently decided I prefer the maximum possible number of attacks dualwielding belm and kundane which is amazingly effective for SoA as you get both weapons early and can run through the game with 5 attacks per round once you reached a reasonable level.
Of course, wielding a staff also is a remarkably effective choice for a kensai. But IMO a dualwielding kensai makes the best use of his offensive qualities.

What are your preferences to arm a kensai? No cheese please, that is, stuff like Crom + C'Fury ...

 

I'd definitely have him wielding Celestial fury -- maybe even single weapon wielding to get some extra protection (I've never played one -- they cannot use shields, right?) I wouldn't have him wield a two handed weapon, as I'd want him to be the one to hit first, as he cannot afford to be hit very often. Your argument regarding Belm and Kundane is quite a good one, and I agree with your thesis that the more hits the better off he is.

 

Actually, I prefer dual-wielding C’Fury main and belm off-hand (I hope you don't consider this cheese, but it's definitely in the realm of powergaming). You end up with 4.5 attacks plus all the benefits of C’Fury (and C’Fury gets 3.5 of the 4.5 attacks). This IMO is much better than an extra 0.5 attack dualling Belm and Kudane which, aside from the extra attacks, are just plain +2 swords, and you lose the benefit of the full extra attacks given the 5 attack cap.

 

Do dish out the most damage, I'd go with two weapon style over a 2-handed weapon. But I haven't done the math to prove it, so don't take my word on this.

My choice of weapon would be flail of ages in the main hand, and probably belm or kundane on the off hand. I really like the no-save slow effect of the flail, especially when there are lots of bad guys that you can't kill in a few rounds. By decreasing their number of attacks, you don't get hit as much, which helps to counteract your vulnerability. The off hand weapon was selected to hit as often as possible, as you first said.

 

I really think kensai's and katana's are made for eachother. Too bad there is only one good katana in the game.

I think I'll do some math when I have a little more time, but I don't really know how. What weapons should I compare? For two-handed weapons, I guess carsomyr, but 1-handed ones? And should I compare 1 great weapon with the belm, or 2 great weapons? (although I'll probably do both)

Anyway, my instinct tells me to have my kensai dualwield longswords. He gets 4,5 attacks a rounf I think, so no use using the belm or anything. I think eventually I'll have him dualwield The Answerer with the Blackrazor, but right now it's the Daystar +5 (from item upgrade mod) and Adjantha the Drinker.

 

Tip for Menion Leah: Don't compare Carsomyr... it's only for paladins so Kensai's can't use it.

 

I sorta went cheese, and dual weilded the crom feyr and the [snip]. Seeing a kensai dual weilding katanas or swords is fine and all, but if a monster sees a kensai with two hammers in hand and murder in his eyes, said monster knows they're in for a long day. I mean, swords are all about the quick, clean death. Hammers are slow, painful, and messy. I like slow, painful, and messy. Plus the immunity to fear, level drain, and +23 to hit aren't that bad either.

[This is a SoA-only forum. ToB item removed.] -Tal

[ September 08, 2003, 14:05: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

Given the classic Oriental slant of the Kensai, I have a hard time with them wielding anyting other than a sword of some sort, preferably a Katana, Wakizashi, Scimitar or Short Sword. Maybe a club (miyamoto musashi, the original Kansai, or sword saint, used wooden bokken (practice katanas) to kill people with. Hammers and flails may make for good powergaming, but they just don't fit the oriental roots of the Kensai. Of course, there's no reason a FR setting couldn't have someone trained in a similar fashion in a more Western setting . . .

 

I've always used two katanas or longswords. To take full advantage of the kensai's abilities you have to have the maximum number of full attacks possible, once you activate the "ki" or something or other ability he will deal maximum damage with every strike so you need lots of attacks every round.

 

I usually have mine wielding celestial fury, and Drizzt's Twinkle offhand for defense.

 

@Erebus,

Do you use Shadow Keeper to do that?

 

No, you kill Drizzt and you take his stuff.

 

And then get it taken off you straight away again

We'll I did anyway! As soon as I left Bodhi's crypt a guy gated in and nabbed it all! Grrrr!

 

@Erebus:

What do wield in your off-hand until then? It's far into the game...

 

Here's the promised math. I don't know if these weapons are really good, but anyway...
I will compare these for human fighters (I know this topic is about kensais, but I want this to be more general) with the best profiences and weapon styles for the job and 18/00 STR. I will also include a paladin that has only two stars in two handed style, but with the carsomyr. This is for an UNPATCHED game (meaning no grandmastery fix).

(the multiplier is for the chance of a cirtical hit)

Paladin with Carsomyr +5:
1.1*(1d12 + 5 + 6 + 1 + 2) = 23.15 (28.15 versus evil)

Warblade +4:
1.1*(1d12 + 4 (weap) + 6 (str) + 1 (style) + 3(prof)) = 22.55

Daystar:
1.05*(1d8 + 2 + 6 + 3) = 16.275 (18.375 vs evil, 32.55 vs undead)

Blackrazor:
1.05*(1d8 + 3 + 6 + 3) = 17,325 + drain 0.6 levels (and some other abilities)

Flail of Ages +3:
1.05*(1d6 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 6 + 3) = 20.475

Belm +2:
1.05*(1d8 + 2 + 6 + 3) = 16.275

I think a fighter without patching would get 3 attacks a round? I'm not sure though..

Fighter with Warblade:
3 * 22.55 = 67.65 damage a round

Fighter dualwielding Flail of Ages with Daystar:
3 * 20.475 + 16.275 = 77.7, 79.8 vs evil and 93.975 vs undead
or
3 * 16.275 + 20.475 = 69.3, 75,6 vs evil and 118.125 vs undead

Fighter dualwielding FoA with Belm:
4 * 20.475 + 16.275 = 98.175

Conclusion: I don't even know why I did this as it's pretty obviously who would win... You have to keep in mind though that the Belm doesn't give any special abilities. It's very nice for damage though. But if we calculate Haste in (you do use it in every hard fight, don't you), things are looking different:

Warblade: 90.2 damage
FoA/Daystar: 98.175 (or 100.215 or 114.45)
FoA/Belm: 98.175

That's it for now, I'll do more if someone requests, but have to go to bed now...

P.S. for a kensai, dualwielding would be even more profitable because more attacks means that the + to damage is applied more often

[edit] Look at post below, I broke forum rules, so I changed it [/edit]

[ September 08, 2003, 09:30: Message edited by: Menion Leah ]

 

The following posters recommend or talk about weapons from ToB in their posts:
- Menion Leah (The Answerer, Gram the Sword of Grief, Foebane)
- Shazamdude (Runehammer)

Beware! You have disregarded the forum rules!

[Very smart. The only problem is, so have you, on a much larger scale. Playing a moderator is against the forum rules as well. You would do well to re-read them.] -Tal

[ September 08, 2003, 14:04: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

I arm mine up with C'Fury and Daystar usually. A hammer is so not kensai style!

 

Blackrazor and Equalizer for me.
Celestial fury will be used before I got blackrazor.
Equalizer's immune to charm and hold are quite useful for me.