The Truth... is it true or false?

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Several months ago I started to not lie so much and tell the truth more. Now I tell ever one who ask's me the truth. And they seem to belive me, but yet they dont.

I wonder. What is the truth any more? Seems you are only asked if you are telling the truth if you are beinning asked about something bad. Is the truth the truth?

I ask myself this question regularly now when I talk to people. I look in to their eyes to see if theirs any lies in their talk. But it's so hard to tell.

Where in the world is the truth told anymore?

 

There is no *truth*, it just doesnt exist. Some things are more plausible than other but you can never find any *truth* at all.

On the telling the truth issue I am totally incapable of lying, the best thing I can do is to elaborate a story a bit. Every time I have lied I have gotten alot of shit for and of course getting caught in the lie. So now I either tell the truth or keep my mouth shut. It's not very popular with some people but you win in the long run. Heh I have gotten out of real troubles with just telling the truth, but then again I have gotten into real troubles by telling the truth too. Keep up the good work DRSW! But I must wonder if you lied all the time before?

 

joacqin, you just need more practice.

 

There is no truth, joacqin?

Is that the truth?

 

Of course there is "truth." More accurate to say that there are true statments. The statement 2+2=4 is just one example of a true statement. The statement, "I am typing on a computer" is another true statement. Not sure how you might mean that there is no such thing is truth.

 

Actually if your a Zen buddhist then 2+2=4 can be considered until it is 2+2=9 or more likely an egg.

 

Ummm, not sure what you mean by "can be considered" but I assume you mean that 2+2=4 can be considered false. Well, I think that people confuse metaphysics with epistemology. 2+2=4. That's a true statement. The fact that it's true is a matter of metaphysics. How we know whether it is true or not is a question of epistemology. Just because someone doesn't know something is true, or has difficulty understanding something, doesn't mean that it isn't true. If you want to sit here and argue about how we know 2+2=4 is true that's epistemology, not metaphysics and you aren't talking about whether it is true at all. If you want to sit here and say 2+2=4 is not true then you are wrong. People can be wrong. Just because people disagree doesn't mean that there isn't a true answer. Anyone who says 2+2=4 is not a true statement is wrong.

 

If you say there is no truth, isn't that a lie too?
Nevermind...the truth is reality...it is what really is or was.
Here's another question...if you don't tell the WHOLE truth, are you lying?

 

Faerus, That is not a lie, Truth does not exist. Only your perception of truth can exist for you.
i.e. For a die hard Atheist, the truth(im using this loosely because honestly, I dont beleive in God the way Christians do) of the Christian God is a falsity. Because it simply is not in his perception of truth.
Laches, their are higher mathmatics that can make 2+2=4 a false staement as well, I dont know them. but its just like saying X*0=0, it only works in lower forms of mathmatics, there are equasions that will make that a false statement also.
I have come to the conclusion that Truth does not exist.

 

Nope, there aren't higher mathematics that prove 2+2=4 is false. Anyone who says there is doesn't really understand these higher mathematics. A common mistake is to translate the proposition and then they may become confused but they're talking about an entirely new proposition.

Here is another one:

(1) If A then C
(2) A
Therefore, C.

This is true. Now you may disagree, but you would be wrong. Any argument with true premises that adheres to this logical form will be true.

Again, you're confusing metaphysics and epistemology. I can't stress that enough. I think in our quest to be PC and sensitive we don't like to recognize the fact that sometimes people are just wrong. Just because people disagree it doesn't mean there isn't a true answer. Just because you can't see/determine/understand the truth doesn't mean there isn't one. Just like if you say there is no such thing as truth you disagree with me but this doesn't mean there is no truth, just means you're confused.

IF you want a more in depth discussion of truth I'd recommend Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein, Putnam, hell, pretty much any reputable analytic philosopher. It isn't even something philosophers bother arguing over because it is so uncontroversial, and trust me, philosophers can rarely every agree on anything.

 

2+2=4 could be false. What really is two? Just two fingers? Well yes. But thats only because thats what we call it. We could have very well called two plus two equals four "four by road is two each" or "green the ape why no." But for the sake of not driving people insain 2+2=4 and thats fact, truth..blablabla.

The truth must exist! If their was no truth then their would be no lie!

I'm not very good a lieing eather. And no I only streched the truth more then it should be. But yet you could call me lieing also.

 

Ok, your walking down the road, and you intend to go to the city of truthtellers. However, there is a fork in the road that branches off in two seperate directions: one leads to the city of truthtellers and one goes to the town of liars. The people who live in these places are as the name of the town implies. You don't know which way to go, and there are no signs to indicate which road goes to what town. However there is a man standing right before the split, but you don't know where he comes from.
What one question do you ask him to get to the city of truthtellers?

 

I completely agree with DRSW's second statement;

This makes perfect sense!! Think about it, if there was no such thing as truth, lies wouldn't exist because you wouldn't know anything other than lies!

 

Heard that one too DragonRider, and that's just another confusion. To make the confusion clearer lets talk about colors. Some have in confusion said that what if we'd called the color blue 'green' and the color grenn 'blue'? The confusion arises out because people miss the name/mention distinction. Consider: 'blue' has 4 letters while blue has no letters whatsoever, it's a color and colors don't have letters. That's one example of the necessity of making the naming/mentioning distinction.

What really is two? It's not two fingers at all. Two isn't a certain number of bottlecaps either. "There was this implicit belief, for a long time, that math was a sort of physics of bottlecaps. That any mathematical operation you could do on paper, no matter how complicated, could be reduced - in theory, anyway- to messing about with actual physical counters." When mathematicians began screwing around with things like the square root of negative one it was obvious that math could not be reduced to physical counters. This created a difficulty in determining which mathematical statements are provable or non-provable since not all mathematics lends itself to empirical testing. Also, Godel came along and showed that one could have formulas acting upon formulas so that there are some statements which are not be proven. I think maybe this is where some of the confusion comes in. Just because SOME statments aren't provable it doesn't follow that there is NO truth.

Tying things together. Two does not refer to a physical counter and Godel's work does not affect the present discussion. The assertion that 2+2=4 is not true is false. The assertion that it could be not true is false. These assertios stem from two primary confusions (here at least) confusing metaphysics/epistemology (see above) and confusing naming/mentioning. When you say 2+2=4 could've been said as "2+2=4" or it could've been said as "four by road is two each" it is true that our language could've been different. However, the fact that our language could've been different does not impact that which we talk about. 2+2=4 is still a true statement and it can't be false. If we imagine another language with a different means of mentioning it then we are no longer talking about the same statement. We're talking about an entirely new (similar looking) statement.

 

To expand on what BTA said (for anyone that doesnt get it)
If you ask the man which way he walked, he will either
1) Tell the truth -or-
2) Lie about the direction, hence pointing at the truthtellers town.

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In defence of what I said:
I did not say that my statement was truth(ironic, no?), I merely said, that was my conclusion.
BTA think me arrogant, but that is my thoughts on it. You think I dont know what Truth is? What makes you think this? Because Im not afraid of saying something that is controversial? Or that Im not afraid to Voice my theories? Just because I dont believe in Truth, does not mean it doesnt exist merely that I do not believe in it.
Maybe Ill change my arguement a little, Truth does not exist in the same form for everybody. Truth for a follower of say, the bible, is completely different than truth for, say, a criminal.

[This message has been edited by DeBhaal Stasion (edited May 05, 2002).]

 

A little correction here, a theorem is a theory that has been proved. Would I be correct in assuming that you knew this, and deliberately said "theorems?"

 

Good call Faerus, Im merely in need of a little thing called sleep. In responce, No I did not remember 'theorem' meaning a theory as being proved, therefore it was used incorrectly.

Im wondering, does anyone know if being able to think of something in great detail and then try to say/type/whatever and not be able to say/type/ect is a actual mental problem or is it just me?