Stupid Thief Question

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I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I don't think I've ever been able to successfully backstab someone. Just finished my last run-through, and was determined to have Coran give it a go in ToB (at Balthazar's), so I loaded him up with invisibility potions, got behind one of Balthy's no-name flunkies, and hacked away. Nothing. Well, regular attack.

Before I start my next game, answer me this: do I have to have the stealth mode activated even if the theif is invisible for a successful BS? I honestly don't know if I've ever tried it, as I tend not think of it as an option. Can someone confirm it for me before I give it another shot and get all disappointed with another measley 8 points of damage?

 

Invis. works just fine, and if you attack from behind, at the very least you ought to get a "backstab unsuccessful" (or whatever) message if they're immune. It also depends on the weapon you're using (it has to be usable by a single class thief), but even then you ought to get a "Weapon unsuitable for backstab" message if you're using one you can't backstab with. And of course, Swashbucklers just can't backstab. Past that, I can't imagine what your problem could be.

BTW, Coran???
Wait, are you using the character I created?

 

I got Coran with the Tortured Souls mod, so....

I confess I wasn't paying CLOSE attention to the text screen (there was a lot going on!), but I did do a scroll up, and didn't see a backstabbing message of any kind. It's entirely possible that the monk turned and I didn't notice it, so it wasn't a back strike. Coran was using a katana from TS...should be BS worthy, right?

On my next run-through, I'm determined to perfect this and backstab every bad guy in the game. So it is written; so shall it be done!

 

Er, nevermind. I'm just not very familiar with mods.

Um, that depends. If it would be usable by a single-classed thief (as in he can only use it because he's a F/T but wouldn't be able to use it as a straight thief), then it should be okay. But that still wouldn't explain why there at least wasn't a message about it.

Try soloing an Assassin; you'll get the hang of it pretty quick.
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Surely you've gotten HLAs by now! Have you taken Assassinate yet? You could test an enemy's backstabbability (long word ) with Assassinate, and then reload to practice backstabbing once you've made sure.

 

I THINK thieves can use katanas (Yoshi has one - but then, he's from Kara-Tur, so who knows?)...but maybe not. That could be the problem.

I just finished installing a hefty bunch of new mods, and, in the process, got rid of TS, so I think Coran's gone now. No more HLAs for me for awhile... just started my next run-through, and thanks to Dungeon-B-Gone, I'm already in the Promenade! Whee! I'll have Yoshi try and backstab as soon as I get to the circus tent.

Almost instantly regretted choosing a Ranger for my NPC; I've played that class SOOO many times (Although I picked the new Justifier kit for variety). I might have given Assassin a try, but I'm going to romance Saerilith, and I understand she's got a problem with theives. (hmmm...two Lawful Good romances in a row...this is DEFINITELY a fantasy game...)

Thanks for the input! I'll let you know how I make out with Yoshi.

 

Katanas in general are usable as backstab weapons, yes, because they're usable by thieves - what Fel meant is that if that katana in particular is for some reason restricted from use by thieves, then you can't backstab with it. The only thing that makes something a backstab weapon is the fact that it's not restricted from use by pure thieves. It'll be in the description (hopefully).

A stalker might've been a fun non-thief choice for backstabbing.

 

It's not about weapon types (yes, all thieves can use katanas), it's about specific weapons. For example, thieves can use staves and one of the best backstab weaponsin the game is the Staff of the Ram +6. But since non-mages (including singel-classed thieves) can't use the Staff of the Magi, not even an M/T or an F/M/T can backstab with that specific weapon. (Which is a real bummer considering the invisibility it confers. ) So if the specific katana that Coran was using was usable by fighters but not thieves, it wouldn't be 'suitable' for backstab. That still wouldn't explain getting no message though, so there must have been something else wrong.

EDIT:
Damn, Prine, I might have to take you on as an apprentice.

 

I'm pretty sure the TS katana was legit for thieves...it was pretty much meant for Yoshimo as part of his extended family quest. I don't remember the description per se; there WERE restrictions on who could use it, but I know I wouldn't have given it to Coran if he couldn't (he DID use successfully throughout ToB, I just didn't try the backstab until well on towards the end). I don't think I can pin this one on the weapon or the character...I'm afraid it was me own fault.

Actually considered the Stalker, precisely because of the backstab option. I turned it down because of the armor restriction.

Edit: Just so we're clear, I get what you guys are saying about the single class usage thing. I'm reasonably sure this weapon wasn't restricted in that way...but I couldn't tell you for certain until the next time I play TS, which probably won't be for a long time. But thanks!

 

I've noticed that the results for a backstab are sometimes very poor for no discernable reason. I put it down to sheer bad luck on the damage table, but I'm pretty sure I've seen backstab damage so low as to be mathematically impossible.

Leather armour isn't too bad really; shadow dragon scale mail gives AC as good as a suit of full plate. Then again you do have to kill a dragon to get it, I guess.

@Fel, heh.

 

You'd be surprised at the number of enemies with at least minimal damage reduction in BG2.

 

I was just VERY amused when I saw the first paragraph of this topic! I seriously do not believe that you haven't backstabbed and you're in ToB!!! It really amazes me! I take it you're not really a big fan of thieves then?

By the way Fel,
Are you sure you can't backstab wit SoTM???

 

No you can't backstab with SoTM. I was kind of disappointed when I first discovered that SoTM couldn't be used for backstabbing, and that I couldn't use non-thief weapons for backstabbing. So much for my solo Kensai-Thief using Carsomyr to backstab. Still, the Staff of Ramm was a worthy replacement, doing somewhere between 130 and 150 damage on a succesful backstab. Critical hits for 300+ damage anyone?

Btw, if you want to go with backstabbing everything, you might want to consider soloing a thief. Dual or multiclass with fighter for maximum effect.

I found my Assassin to be somewhat disappointing, though. Septuple backstab for 30 damage? I just blame the Short Sword of the Mask for this pitiful damage. Still, it didn't seem right to use a longsword to backstab someone... Damn RP-ing.

 

Is there a way to allow a thief to backstab with SoTM using SK or something?

 

Shadowkeeper can't edit ITM files as far as I know, but Near Infinity can. It'd be very easy to make the staff of the magi into a backstab weapon, but it's incredibly flagrant cheating. Might as well create a shortsword that turns you invisible whenever you equip it.

It's a shock when you backstab and hit for 7. The variation in damage between backstabs is obviously far more pronounced than the usual damage range on a weapon, and I guess the dice just hate me. I'll never be a gambler.

 

LOL Prine!

Well I guess so, but then I'd probably just make up my own weapon. Something that's +5, makes you invisible and gives you a nice lot of thief bonuses rather than mage bonuses ... Staff of the Master Rogue! I like it!

Btw, can anyone tell me exactly WHY it isn't a backstab weapon when it's CLEARLY a staff.

 

Why? Because it's not a weapon for pure thieves.

Why by logic? Staves of the magi are very powerful mage artifacts, and their powers aren't supposed to be usable by anyone but a magic-user. But perhaps you should ask why any staff should work as a backstab weapon, being that you can't stab someone in a sensitive spot with a blunt object.

 

If you learn propper technique's you can do some serious damage with a blunt staff. From knocking a person out to serious injury. Martial Artists with a Bo Staff are rather quite lethal for example. Which is why it really damned well sucks that monks can't use them.

I've never had my backstabs do anything in the way of real damage either though. That's why I never really perfected it. I got to say that a few of the enemies at least in SoA seem to cheat though. I've had thieves vanish through an invisibility potion while surrounded by my group. Stay Surrounded and then do major backstab damage to one of my characters while they are all facing them. The dirty little cheaters.

 

How do you ecxatly attemp to backstab? If you click weapon first, it negates your invisibility quickly. When backstabing, only click the enemy (or click weapon and click target very quickly).

 

It sucks like hell, but any NPC not in the party requires no direction check when determining a backstab. In other words, any attack made from an invisible state will be considered a backstab. This is because it's difficult or impossible to script a reliable backstab sequence. If I recall correctly this also applied to party members back in BG1.

Also, whilst a trained martial artist can possibly cause serious precision damage with a staff, thieves are not trained martial artists. They're alley thugs, mostly, and the backstab is supposed to represent the act of sneaking up behind someone and sticking a knife in their neck or kidney, not sneaking up and prodding one of their pressure points with the end of a quarterstaff.

Selecting an attack form doesn't remove invisibility, it only cancels the hide in shadows modal state. If you're using any kind of invisibility except for hiding in shadows, you can select an attack without becoming visible. If you're hiding, you still get a one round grace period before the invisibility state wears off.

 

In first edition AD&D I swear I remember in the description of thieves and assassins that all sorts of weapons were usable for back stabs such as clubs. In fact backs tab is the official term but even in first edition is was understood that hitting someone in the back of the head with a large blunt object was just as effective as stabbing someone in the back.