(Spoiler) Paladins - how do I get the real illithium without being deceitful?

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I like to roleplay properly but I also know I need the Mace of Disruption upgraded to protect me from level drain. So how can I get the illithium to do this, without being deceitful to Sir Sarles?
On a similar vein, I happen to know there is a scroll of protection from undead carried by a certain Amnish soldier (I found this out in past gaming). Now, playing a paladin, I can't turn a blind eye to pick-pocketing and I have chosen to play a pure P&P type game which means I cannot buy magic objects. Furthermore, I know about Kangax and/or Shangalar and such a scroll would be highly prized. Is it possible to get this item *fairly*?

NB. I've discovered that my paladin can wear the Amulet of Power despite that it says in the item's description that it is prohibited to fighters. Should I be allowed to wear it? Would I be making use of an 'exploit' if I do?

 

Actually, assuming you're doing Sarles in Chapter 2, then if you're role-playing, how do you know that there is an alternative use for the illithium? Unless you just happen to visit Cromwell while you're doing the Sarles quest, you'd really have no reason to suspect that the illithium has another use.

Of course, if you're in Ch 3 and have the MoD before doing the Sarles quest, then there's no problem.

 

You wouldn't be decieving the church, you'd be decieving Sarles, who thinks he's above the church.

Or, you could get the IMoD, and just never finish the Sarles quest. You wouldn't be decieving anybody, you just wouldn't get the job done.

 

Depends on the way you look at things. What's worse: being honest with Sir Sarles and depriving yourself of a weapon you can use to smite the forces of evil, or being dishonest to Sir Sarles and getting hold of this weapon? Surely the pros outweigh the cons. And from a moral viewpoint, the good you do with the improved mace (smiting of undead and the like) will more than make up for any deceit on your part.

After all, if the only way to save a kidnap victim was for your paladin to tell a lie, do you think he'd be reprimanded for lying?

 

By getting the fake Illithium you do two good things.
You forge a weapon which transforms you into a terror for all undead.
You save the temple from the wiles of a pompus ass who is not even intrested in the Gods.
So go tell Sarles off!

 

Splunge, why is there no problem after chapter 3?
I like the idea of using the illithium to make a weapon that will serve goodness more than a statue will. I'll have to 'accidentally' visit Maheer first (who will talk about Cromwell) and then Cromwell himself, in order to 'discover' an alternate use for the metal!
On the scroll issue, I was wondering if anyone else might think of engineering a night encounter with the vampires and moving towards the Waukeen guards during the fight (against my wishes, of course!); they will enter the fight and surely die, enabling me to get the scroll!

 

It's no problem in Ch 3 if you have the MoD (which you get in Ch 3) and therefore Cromwell would have told you about the upgrade if you visit him with MoD in your possession. (Of course, at that point, you should be trying to beat Bohdi and get to Brynnlaw ASAP, and not wasting time on a statue )

I still think it's unlikely that you would just happen to visit Cromwell with the illithium in your inventory (unless you suspected that this mysterious metal might have other uses, which I suppose is possible. OK, so maybe it isn't so unlikely )

 

Going back to the Amulet of Power - it was confirmed somewhere (i forget where, but I'm not making this up - promise ) that the Amulet may be used by any spell casters, including Inquisitors who cast Dispel and true sight. Fighters were excluded because they don't cast spells as were thieves etc. There may be a mod that changes this but as far as I'm concerned Paladins should be allowed them.

EDIT - Found it, in Baldurdash (copied from the readme)

Amulet Of Power Usability Fix

File AMUL21.ITM; a edited version of the Baldur's Gate 2: Throne Of Bhaal item definition for the Amulet Of Power. It resolves the bugs of this amulet being wearable by barbarians and monks, who are not spellcasters, but not paladins and rangers, who are. The amulet should be available only for all spellcasting classes (Mage/sorceror, bard, druid, cleric, paladin, and ranger.) This was confirmed by Senior Designer David Gaider on the Black Isle messageboards, who also confirmed that Inquisitor paladins should have access to it though they cannot cast priest spells as their innate abilities are spell-like and they are members of a spellcasting class. Its protection from level drain will not be useful to an Undead Hunter paladin.

 

Well, fisrt of all I couldn´t cheat Sarles with the fake illithium. He saw that it was fake and left. But if you can I say - Do it. There are way to few items that protect from Level Drain.

As for the Amulet. I do not think it is a bug. A Paladin isn´t a fighter, he´s a Paladin. So since only thieves and fighters aren´t able to wear it there´s no bug. Use it on him and have a fighter use the IMoD.

 

Thanks Malovae for easing my conscience about the amulet.
Duke, when I mentioned cheating Sir Sarles I meant merely attempting to pass off a deceit i.e. "I couldn't get any real illithium"! Paladins aren't supposed to lie, even to snobbish, arrogant artists!

If I go to Maheer in the Promanade, I can prompt him to tell me about Cromwell. I'll just happen by sometime to sell off some treasure. Then when I come across illithium, I'll think 'hey, this might be of some use to a master weapon smith!'. *Then, I'll decide that a good weapon is better for the cause of good, than the statue, and openly announce to Sarles (hope there's a suitable option) that I've got an alloy for him to work with. I think that solves it.

 

Personally, my take on the Paladin has always been that he/she would not go back on a promise and thus would deliver the illithium to Sarles. The Paladin in my mind does not ever compromise and make decisions where the ends justifies the means.

 

Not even to help rid the city of Athkatla of an incredibly powerful vampire (Bodhi)?

Personally I think a paladin would have the common sense to do what was right for the greater good than just one jumped up artist. If giving the illithium ore to Sir Sarles means a lesser chance of saving the city from Bodhi, then surely not forging the Mace of Disruption is the more evil path of the two?

 

Here's a description of a Lawful Good character as it appears in the D&D Players Handbook

Lawful Good, "Crusader": A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

So in otherwords... if you are not always telling the truth, or keeping your word, you can still be good, but not lawful good. I would say your paladin is now a nuetral/chaotic good and thus not worthy Sorry

 

@ david w - That is just it, to me a paladin behaves as if honour and following the the letter of the law supercedes common sense. To me the paladin is the ultimate ultra-strict goody goody who is almost guaranteed to have everyone else in the party grinding their teeth and cursing at the paladin's lack of moral flexibility.

 

Paladins also have to be extremely wise i.e. without at least 13 wisdom (which out of 18 is pretty wise for a minimum) he cannot hope to think his way through the moral dilemas. Remember one aspect of wisdom is foresight. Thus, a paladin may be thinking ahead about what lurks beneath that graveyard. If he has knowledge of how illithium's 'taintless' property can also be used to purge evil (and such a thing seems likely to be the sort of thing paladins would know well), having heard of Cromwell, and having a Mace of Disruption...it seems fair to argue that any paladin worth his salt would have the foresight to see the possibilities of using the metal for the greater good.
Also, the paladin is meant to be a teacher through leading by example; a bringer of wisdom i.e. one can argue that it is within the scope of a paladin to try to bring Sir Sarles down a peg or two by showing him that true art comes not from the material but from that with which it was shaped.
A delicate and tricky line to walk but no one said being a paladin was easy.
JSBB, morality often runs in direct opposition to 'common' common sense. Paladins don't lack common sense since this too is an aspect of wisdom. For example, the intelligent man knows the fact that smoking is harmful but may still smoke because he lacks the wisdom not to. Thus, a paladin may hold abiding by the law above common sense - such a dilema would mean the law was unwise - but he wouldn't if it was also unjust; he would have to strive to change the law, possibly by illustrating that said law was unwise!
I wonder if the game writers intended this side-quest to be so involving?

[ January 21, 2004, 11:56: Message edited by: keldor ]

 

I had a similar thread several months ago concerning the Mae'Var's Guild. I argued that there was no way a paladin should be able to do that quest either, as completing the quest required you to steal, murder, lie, etc.

As a side note, I think you should be able to have it both ways. There's no way Cromwell uses all 200 pounds of illithium to improve the MoD. I mean, does the mace weigh any more after he is finished? Probably not. And I'm sure Sarles could make just as good of a statue out of say, 199 pounds of illithium as he could out of 200 pounds...

 

Just come up with an RP-like excuse to have your Paladin doing something else when it comes time to talk to the Ore Merchant, and have a different character talk to her. There, your Paladin doesn't even KNOW that the Ore you pick up the next day isn't real Illithium. Ta-da!
In true RP style, party members can do things that other party members don't know about.

 

ROFL! In this same vein: I had my thief steal from the temple of the morning sun(?) but he got detected. The guards outside attacked my good character who just ignored them (of course) and avoided them in 'surprise'. Later on when doing the Korgan mini-quest, I had Korgan enter the church and hack them all to pieces when they duly attacked him (for being in my party). And so it was that I got loads of xps and never even knew about Korgan's riotous bloodletting!
By the way, my paladin took on the Maivar quest after being urged to listen by Yoshimo. When I heard it was a scenario of working against a part of the guild, I deemed it acceptable - and a chance to get to know more about the filthy guild with a view to wiping it out later on.

 

Well, a lot of the things you guys are doing are pretty clever, but the fact remains, you can't go out and be so clever with a paladin, forsight does not lead you to vampires/mace of disruption getting upgraded wtih "Impure" metal. Especially since you have no way of knowing about it, and if you did, you would still be honor bound to get the real illithium to the painter. You lead by example if you begin to cheat people for the "greater good", people who are Lawful Good will kill random beggars and say it's for the "greater good" because they're a waste of food and those supplies could go to other beggars so they can have a better life


Keep in mind that playing a paladin RP style, is incredibly difficult, and incredibly one sided. There is no grey area with a paladin. You either lied or you didn't, you either stole or you didn't, you either went along with an evil choice, or you didn't. Despite his wisdom, he does not come out being the wisest of people. The Wisdom/Charisma requirements are more for their diplomatic type responsibilities, not for his abillity to see what might happen. Wisdom to begin with is just a persons ability to Reason, and the method of a paladins reasoning is as follows:

"If I did this, would it be good or would it be evil?"

trying to trick Sir Sarles would be seen as unlawful, and thus your paladin might as well be fallen already.