Spell Discussions: Level 2

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Agannazar's Scorcher (Evo)
-This spell is rather interesting. Although the duration says instant, it actually lasts for a while. The line of fire stays on the target, and anything that comes into the fire gets hit. So if you maneuver around a bit, you can deal quite a bit of damage. Unfortunately, it isn't party friendly.

Blur (I)
-This is a pretty good pre-battle buff.

Deafness (I)
-I do not recall ever using this spell.

Detect Invisibility (D)
-I guess it has its usefulness.

Ghoul Touch (N)
-Pretty useless, you have to make a touch attack AND have them fail a saving throw. That's a lot to ask for.

Glitterdust (C)
-This spell has potential. Mages tend to like using improved invisibility. Not sure if this would dispel it, but I'll assume so. And add a chance to blind, it's pretty much game over for the mage.

Horror (N)
-I found chasing down the enemies to be a pain in the butt.

Invisibility (I)
-This could be useful with a contigency. Set to trigger on helpless. The 24 hour duration could prove to be useful. A cleric who would mainly be casting defense and healing spells would benefit greatly from this.

Knock (Alt)
-A must-have when you lack a thief.

Know Alignment (D)
-I think this spell is down there with Infravision.

Luck (Enc)
-I used to use this, but it always wore off too quickly. The bonus doesn't seem that great either.

Melf's Acid Arrow (C)
-Must-have. One of the few attack spells in Level 2. This is death to any mages without spell protections. Makes a good troll killer too.

Mirror Image (I)
-This is like having a level 2 version of Stoneskin. I'm gonna say this is a must-have.

Power Word Sleep (C)
-This is useless for a power word. Must have less than 20 hp AND affects 1 target only. Hell, it's like worse than the level 1 Sleep spell.

Ray of Enfeeblement (Enc)
-This spell is pretty interesting. Reducing a fighter's strength to 5. I'll need some more opinions on this.

Resist Fear (Abj)
-I tend to always take this spell, as there are plenty of times when some fear-type of attack is used against the party. Could prove to be useful in contigency. If dispel magic removes fear, then I should probably stop taking this.

Stinking Cloud (Evo)
-This is like a constant Sleep that affects party members. Could be useful, but I'd imagine they'd wake up after taking a hit.

Strength (Alt)
-I personally don't like having to cast these kind of buffs. Prefer using a strength increasing girdle.

Vocalize (Alt)
-I found getting silenced isn't all that common. does make a good backup until you get your hands on the Amulet of Power.

Web (Evo)
-This is a VERY good spell for incapacitating enemies. Especially for a level 2 spell, they suffer a penalty to the saving throw too.

So this is what I got for the Top 5:
Blur
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
Resist Fear
Web


Level 2 spells seems more of a buffing stage. Preparing yourself for anything that comes your way.

 

syuu:

Useless?

Hell no!

A strategy I invented: Cast Improved Haste. Stick Tensor's Transformation, and Ghoul Touch in a Spell Sequencer/Contigency. Shapeshift into a Sword Spider (5 attacks per round). Activate the Contigency/Spell Sequencer.

Result = Fighter THACO, double HP, 8 attacks per round, chance to paralyze with each hit. Once you hit your opponent, he can't hit back. Note that Ghoul Touch can penetrate and paralyze through Stone Skins.

Read more here:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=029172#000000

Note that my comment on that thread about the Cloak of the Sewers if WRONG. Your ghoul touch weapon disappears after the spell expires, leaving the weapon your non-polymorphed character is wielding in its place. The Cloak of Sewers had nothing to do with that phenomenom.

Web is better in every way.

[ August 04, 2007, 11:51: Message edited by: The Mountain Hare ]

 

Personally I find Ray of Enfeeblement very useful. I have used it with success on dragons I.E. when I
brought their resistances and saving throws down.

It's a matter of taste, but I find it funny when the dragon has trouble hitting me.

 

I'd say that's just about spot on. My list would be:
*Melfs acid (too good to pass up with damage over time spell disruption awesomeness)
*Glitterdust (area effect blindness, dispells invis)
*Mirror image (mini stoneskin, pity bout the duration though)
Resist Fear (if you cant cast remove fear via a cleric/pally)
Web (if you want to do a spider spawn/web combo)
Invis (if you lack a stealthy character, or want to enhance one)
knock (if you don't have a thief)

Other good spells that I reckon get edged out (albeit barely)
Horror - tends to work ok, I personally dont like hunting down yellow enemies.
Blur - good spell, good duration etc, Mirror image is far better though, and there just isn't enough room for it.
Ray of Enfeeblement - save or else type spell; I'd rather Glitterdust as it's area effect and has other uses.
Goul touch - I still cant see it; the number of spells required to make moderate use of it is simply too much.
Agonizers scorcher - not as damaging as Melf's, it can effect multiple targets, but this include party members. If you really want it use a wand of fire.

 

Mine Solo sorc spell list must haves:

- Mirror Image
- Glitterdust (dispel invisibility + mass blind = sweet)
- Web (+ sword spiders = Mayhem)

I usually pick 'Ghoul Touch' to use my 'Deadly Spidey' tactic against single tough opponents.

If you don't want to use that strategy (fie on you!), you have two more picks to play around with.

Ones which you might consider:

- Melf's Acid Arrow. Not essential IMHO, but nothing much better on this level.

- Strength. To buff particular summons, such as the unusually weak Fire Elemental

- Blur. Tthe extra protection is OK, but it becomes sort of redundant at higher levels. But once again, nothing better is available at this level, so you might as well take the little extra free protection.

- Invisibility. MEH


Spells suggestions which I disagree with include:

- Knock. If you're playing a solo Sorc, just buy a couple of Knock scrolls for the few places in the game where opening doors is essential.

- Horror. Glitterdust does the same thing, but better.

- Resist fear. Fear was never a problem for me.

 

Fear WAS a problem to me. To many mage's casting Horror, not to forget liches or dragons.

Especially dragons with their innate ability.

Anyway, for me, Resist Fear is a must have.

Your Ghoul Touch strategy is interesting, The Mountain Hare. I never found touch attacks very attractive since it's an opening for counter attacks. But very imaginative. I must try it.

 

Yeah, Stu's got the idea on Ghoul Touch. That's WAY too many preparations just to make it OK. You're even using level 6 spells in there. Greater Malison + Chromatic Orb would do a better job. Still, it is kinda interesting. Glad you brought it up.


As for Resist Fear, yeah if you've got a cleric, you really don't need this. Ever. They both last 1 hour, so you can buff it immediately when you start. Incase it ever gets dispelled, having 2 people who can remove fear isn't so bad. A requirement for solo, not so much otherwise.


So far this is what I got for the top 5:

Party:
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
Web

Solo:
Knock
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
Resist Fear
Web

You'd be missing out on way too much if you have to use Knock scrolls as a Sorcerer.

Now, this leaves a choice between 4 other spells that could prove to be useful.
Blur
Ghoul Touch
Glitterdust
Ray of Enfeeblement

Ray of Enfeeblement is like the opposite of blinding a mage. It'll ruin a fighter. Can't move, can't hit, completely useless. Having this will add that touch of variety to the spell arsenal.


My original plan is to avoid Glitterdust and wait for True Sight. Because once you have True Sight, glitterdust is pointless. But waiting until then to dispel invisibility, which gets used often, could prove to be difficult. Also, I think one of the familiars can cast Glitterdust, making this rather redundant. It's got its ups and downs. I'm in a bind for this one. I'm not too worried or pleased with the blinding bonus, it won't get used that often later on as well, the duration is far too short. We have Web for area incapacitation after all.

 

True Sight is a far better spell, but it's 4 lvls higher and Glitterdust has the added bonus of blindness, which can be awesome if you come up against ranged enemies and spell casters (it will completely incapacitate them). Also mellee fighters can't see you, so you have a few rounds to pump em full of arrows. Also you can stick a couple in fairly low level sequencers to double your chances on multiple enemies.

Party
Melf's Acid Arrow
Web
Mirror Image
Glitterdust
Invisibility

Solo (yeah, I've got 6, leave one out based on personal preference)
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
Web
Knock
Resist Fear
Glitterdust

Ray of enfeeblement - I still can't justify it based on the fact that its single target and Glitterdust is area effect.

 

The problem with the Glitterdust Sequencer is that you need to target someone with it. And if they are invisible, it should fail and not allow you to cast. (Need confirmation on that, but I know for sure sequencer needs a target, regardless of the spells you loaded into it.)
So if you're planning to dispel invisible, there has to be a non-invisible target nearby, or you go to them yourself and target yourself.

Besides, True Seeing is definitely one of those must-have spells. You need something to dispel those high level illusions. In the long run, Blur is even better than Glitterdust. Gaining a better AC/saving throw is never a bad thing (enemy suffers penalty to attack, same effect as better AC).


As for Ray of Enfeeblement, it does a much better job against fighters than blindness. With blindness, they can still hit you. They'll be up close and personal, in which they can see. Compared with Glitterdust, the duration and effectiveness is much higher. But like you said, only affects 1 target. It's a give and take.


That said, Ray of Enfeeblement seems slightly better to me, due to its variety. If you are looking to stop a group of enemies, we already have Web. Much wider effect, and does a much better job than Glitterdust ever will. On top of that, it's constant; no need to recast every time if they saved the first time. There's no need to have 2 area of effect spells.


Anyway, Web is superior to Glitterdust in the Area of effect spell, there's no need to have more. As for dispelling invisibility, there's no need. The only way someone can hurt you is to be slighty visible with Improved Invisibility. And if that's the case, it's not too difficult to combat that.

 

Can someone please explain to me exactly how Ray of Enfeeblement hurts the opponent? Is a strength reduction to 5 a big deal? Doesn't it only increase their THAC0 by a couple of points?

 

It affects everything related to Strength. Meaning their inventory weight and damage dealt. I thought you'd know that.. it's in the description too. Lost a bit of credibility for your arguments.

 

So let's assume that a dragon is hit by a Ray of Enfeeblement. It lowers their strength to five.

- By how much will their damage per strike decrease?

- By how much will their THAC0 increase? What is the relative change is how often they can strike your character.

- Will the decrease in carriable weight make any difference? I've hit several opponents with the spell in the past, and they have never slowed down due to the weight of their own armour (encumb)

I guess what I'm asking is whether the alterations made by the spell make any noticable difference?

syuu:

The validity of an opinion should be determined based on the arguments in its favour, not on 'credibility'. I was aware that a strength of 5 decreases damage and inventory strength, but I didn't think that the difference was significant enough to be noteworthy.


EDIT:

I've looked at the manual. A strength of 5...

- Increases THAC0 by 2.
- Has a damage adjustment of -1.
- Drops weight allowance to 15

[ August 05, 2007, 09:41: Message edited by: The Mountain Hare ]

 

Dragons typically have a STR of 25 in the game. So the difference in THAC0 and damage is -9/-15. That's a 45% less chance you'll be hit, for 15 less damage. Significant, but that is the extreme. On the other extreme, it could be as little as -2/-1 (from a "neutral" STR to 5), or even less if they already had a STR of 7 or lower.

Regarding carryable weight...you'd kind of need to be hitting a human or demi-human. Creatures don't tend to carry even 10 lbs. of equipment. But any demi-human with even leather armor should be stopped in their tracks.

 

You're right, sorry about that.


Anyway, the damage and THAC0 will vary depending on how much strength they had originally. I know for sure the damage will be lowered siginifcantly. They'll be hitting for even less than what the weapon says it can. Or in some cases, won't even be able to use the weapon.

A fighter with 18/00 STR will suffer a 5 point penalty to their THAC0 and a 25 STR enemy will suffer 9 points to their THAC0. According to the manual.

Their maximum weight capacity becomes 15. Enough for a thief to wear leather armor, a dagger and a few potions. But they aren't the target. Fighters are. And they won't just be slowed, they won't even move.

 

Yeah, it's not a bad spell for its level, when you consider that it has specialist uses.

 

That sounds about right, though I was hinting at this being of more use for inducing blindness, rather than dispelling illusions (it dispells invisibility without a save, so casting 2 at the same time will have no benefit over a single casting in this respect)

Not if they're more that 5 feet away from you - they can't chase what they can't see.

True Seeing is level 6 though, and in direct competition with spells like PFMW, Chain Lightning, Improved Haste and Mislead - I just think if your fighting against a thief or low level mage it would be better to use a 2nd level spell and only use true seeing when you need to. Also Clerics and Inquisitors can cast True Seeing. There will be plenty of times when you come across invisible enemies when you're too low a level to cast True Seeing.
As for Blur being better- it only gives -3 ac and -1 to saving throws. You don't really want your Mage/sorcerer to be in a position to get hit, and if it does happen your AC will be so bad that -3 wont make that huge a difference. Mirror Image will be more effective anyway. Glitterdust lowers the enemies THAC0 by 10 and increases the enemies AC by 4, which will make the time far easier for your party/summons.

Thats a tad mean - everyone has a mental blank once and a while.

Some weapons have a strength requirement - if ray of emfeeblement brings it below that requirement they can no longer use that weapon. But yeah, often enough they can still hit you, which they wouldn't be able to do if you were 5 feet away and they were blind. I can respect that its a good spell, I just feel that Glitterdust is slightly better in the same way I feel that MM is better than Chromatic Orb (in the end it comes down to personal preference)

[ August 05, 2007, 10:44: Message edited by: Stu ]

 

If you're going to stay 5 feet away from every blind person, any fighters will be useless in the party unless they decide to switch on over to a range weapon for 4 rounds. Same goes with thieves and all other melee characters.


Protection wise, Blur is still better than blinding your opponent in the long run. -3 AC and +1 saving throw with blur, -4 with blindness. Problem is, they need to fail a saving throw in order for blindness to kick in. No worries with Blur. Besides, there aren't enough things that give a mage bonuses to their saving throws.


Since you to have to keep staying 5 feet away from a blind guy, you might as well just throw away all your melee weapons. And if that's the case, Web does a much better job. Not only can they not move, they suffer a -2 penalty when making the saving throw. And they will act held, so EVERYTHING will hit. Regardless of your THAC0. A mage with a sling could get in on the fun.

No need to dispel improved invisibility. Everyone in the party can sling the mage, caught in the web, to death.

Sure Glitterdust is party friendly, a proper aiming of Web would fix the problem. Not too worried having a fighter of yours caught in the bunch with the enemies. None of them will be able to do anything.

Glitterdust only affects hostiles, so you won't be able to pre-cast it on a group of enemies about to turn hostile. It will have to be cast in the midst of battle, where more important spells should be.

 

Glitterdust lowers the enemies THAC0 by 10 and increases the enemies AC by 4 (the manual is erroneous) . The saving throw is the obvious downside, however I still feel that the benefits of blur are too minor to be of real use given that the caster really shouldn't be placed in a position where he/she could get hit (also other lvl 2 protection spells such as mirror image are far more effective).

You don't have to stay 5 feet away from the blind guy - that was part of an argument comparing it to enfeeblement (where one of the main positives for enfeeblement was lack of movement, making ranged attacks very useful). In comparison with web, Glitterdust is used very differently; Web is best used at the start of battles, before you see the enemy (and often in conjuction with spider spawn). Glitterdust is party friendly and can be used mid battle when everyone is already in close proximity to each other. Affected enemies will be pretty much incapacitated (+10 THAC0, +4 AC) and taking them on in mellee is a very good tactic (they'll still be able to attempt to hit you, but the chances are exceedingly low). Ranged individuals will also be unable to do anything in this time and they'll just stay still until you're ready to beat them to a pulp.

 

Doesn't the Spell Fix apply the -4 to saving throws for Glitterdust?

So, if you apply the Spell Fix, Glitterdust gives -4 to AC, +10 to THAC0, and -4 to all saves. That's... not bad. And remember, it can also function as an illusion dispeller.

 

After playing around with both of the spells, Ray of Enfeeblement is broken. Or just the game itself. I enfeebled an Amnish guard, but he could still move around and attack. So I added him into my party, he had 77 lbs over 15 lbs. And when I tried to move him, he couldn't move at all. Bleh.

So after I kick him out, and he was neutral (blue circle) he he couldn't move. Then I attacked him, turned hostile, started moving again. The hell. Well, Ray's usefulness gone down the gutter and Glitterdust has taken its spot.

Glitterdust is alright, just that the duration is far too short. I'd still take Blur over it. I can see myself using Blur more often than Glitterdust in high level battles. The bonus may be small for the spell alone, but things add up.