Spell Amount or Mana?

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Obviously we all know it will most likely be a spell amount system used for magic limit like it was in BG2, but since this is a different game. Wouldn't mana be a better preference when it comes to the limit of how many spells one can cast before having to rest? or at least a possibility to drink potions and such that will give you some/all of your spells back. Personally I would prefer mana or the 2nd potion option.

 

Actually I'm a big fan of the Reagent or components and/or power up by using spell method.

But I'm afraid it's less popular system than the two mentioned here. I dislike mana though because somehow it feels cheesy in a grand universe I'm sure Dragon Age will be. Yeah, component or Reagents would be my first choice, with a level restriction to more powerfull spells.

 

Actually, Apeman's sugestion is very appealing, though I'd work it out differently. I don't like the idea of one big energy pot of mana, that all spells draw from, and they just use more or less of it. On the other hand, the memorisation like in D&D is not all that either, since you are forced into a fixed set of spells between rests. The reagent or component approach has the advantage of having a shared resource between the different spells, making the use of spells restrictive of the use of other spells, while still allowing a bit more flexibility, so as to not run out of usefull spells while you still have memorised spells, but that are not useable. In D&D, the closest example of this approach is the casting of sorcerers (and bards in 3rd).

A better example, but that fewer will know, is the one used in Secret of Evermore, which incidentally is the system Apeman was proposing. But it was implemented in a very intuitive way. You still had only a select few "slots" you could cast in battle (needed to talk to "mentor" characters to change the content of the slots), and every spell had certain components, so the useage of certain spells would hinder the useage of others, but not of all.

The difference I would do is not to use collectible ingredients, but just give the "schools" different energy types, and spells would be composed of a mixture of these energies, but I would let these energies "regenerate" just like the MP or mana used in most rpgs.

 

Not incidentally, Secret of Evermore is one of my favourite Snes games.

 

What about the spell advancement system of Secret of Evermore? It is kinda logical that spells grow more stronger the more you use them. The only downside in SoE is that the cost for the components is too high to really use the magic extensively, unless farming monsters.

But, I must admit the game industry has made some very good evolutions regarding the ability to use magic not only for "boss" fights, which was a phenomenon of older games, where it costed you much more to use your magic, and as such you couldn't afford using it in just random encounters.

 

Well cost wasn't really a problem, it was the availability and the length of the game that caused problems. For such a small game there were many spells and very little space and enemies to maximise all spells.The coolest spells you got were in the endgame where you just wanted to end the game, not using spells on monsters to increase the effectiveness.

Secret of Mana, while not having components, had enough space and enemies to effectively increase your spells. They even got another animations once you hit a certain level


But increasing effectiveness of spells by using them is a very valid option IMO. Fighting works the same way right, so why not magic. Maybe an experience point system for fighting and/or magic

 

Well, Morrowind has such a system, although it only increases your magic skills per school, not per individual spell, like Secret of Evermore did.

 

Mana is better. Or the D&D sorcerer system. Predicting what spells you may need to use and sleeping to learn them is rubbish, especially for priests and the like (as those spells are supposed to be prayers).

If we are talking about games released so far, I like the Might & Magic system and the Force system from KotOR 1 and 2. D&D isn't bad, but... it's not really it. It does have a certain flavour, but come on... the flaws are too obvious.

 

I agree with Chev. The mana system or the sorcerer system used in BG II both work well. The D&D standard system, though tried, is anything but true.
As for seperate xp systems, I like what Morrowind did, only refined. Certain spells leveling up individually makes a certain amount of sense, but not a whole lot. Types of magic going up makes more sense, but you shouldn't get much xp for shooting a fireball into a tree or swinging at mid-air or just jumping up and down. Xp comes from challenging yourself, not doing the same things over and over.
And forget about xp in running and jumping, there are some things that people should just know, especially in a wilderness/fantasy setting.

 

Have you ever trained or watched someone train at something? Take the example of marshal arts. An exercise there is for example, constantly punching in air (how is this different from shooting fireballs at thin air?) and still you learn, you become better. Why? Because our body (and mind) learns from repetition. The more you do something, the more instinctive, fluent and efficient you become at it. And what else is xp than a numerical representation of the learning process?

So you're saying that advancement in more physical non-combat skills is bs? Yes, your hero is not a demented child, so he will know how to jump and run. But the system in Morrowind didn't ever prevent you from running or jumping, it just made you better at it. You jumped higher and further, you could run faster and longer.

The only point I found stupid about the learning system of Morrowind (yes, I'm one of the few supporters of that system) was the lack of reaction from people when you were training your sneaking skill. You could just jam your character in a corner in front of an npc, go into sneaking and run into the corner (preferably by blocking the run and sneak button) and the npc would not react to you being all sneakish for hours around him, especially in the beginning while your sneaking was so abysmal he would constantly see you trying to sneak.

 

That is the whole problem/advantage in leveling and xp. always there will be some holes in the system. I prefer the 3,5 rule which has been debated over for so long that it contains the lowest number of faults. I hate skill tree's.

but dragon age is a new thing, a test to find the best system. A mix of memory and mana to allot/fuel like Guildwars can be a clue. Although that game is to much combat based, it plays smarter than just mana. for me the problem is that I absolutely positively do not want to end up with a so called rpg like the diablo clones that are called rpg. To avoid that we must mix memory into it. players must choose between different spells and not just select the heal and fireball. (With maxed stats in a skilltree system) If I want to mash a keyboard, i will buy a console. So I return to the D&D system.

example: I have been playing bg1(Tutu) today and came across an other party (bounty hunters, yes me) Brute force is easy, but they were higher in levels so I lost.well i can come back later... A simple web/stinking cloud combo and the archers cut them to pieces. Which system based om a skilltree will have so many different spells like that. Is it at all possible to think and create so much in a new system? So if not 3,5 than it has to be a mix.

I remember a piece of news on the bioware site a few years back. It had something to do whit the licsence of D&D. Wizards, if that is the owner, wanted big bucks from bioware for using it. Stupid while free advertising of your product over the whole world... Let me just say that D&D might be big in the US, but with me in the Netherlands shops with D&D are counted on one hand nationwide. I thnk that wizards get more money with the miniatures and books than one game per two years. Warhammer is far more populair here. So Bioware might have created a loophole and came with very similair but yet different things to keep the lawyers at bay and the players in.

 

Merlanni, I might be interpreting your post wrongly, but what you are refering too is more the spell choices, rather than how their use is limited (by slots or mana (or energy if you prefer)). The strategic value of spells has nothing to do with how they are fuelled, which is actually the discussion of this thread. Still, the strategic value of the spells in BG2 is still rather limited too, hence the reason the Sorcerer is such a good mage. There are only so few spells you use per level. Diversity is not enough, there must be a reason to use more than a few of them.

The diversity in D&D comes mostly from flavor. In other rpgs you have spells that do the same, but are just less flavorfull than throwing spider webs or stinking clouds at your enemy. There they are just called Paralysis (or something similar).

3.5 are good rules, BUT only for actual pnp rpg, not for crpg. Most of what makes the system cannot be implemented in a crpg in a decent fashion, as it is too broad. The only skills that translate well into crpgs are the combat skills. Besides, the button smashing has more to do with the fact the Diablo-likes have an action element. They will be button-smashers, no matter the system behind them. You clearly never played some of the hack-n-slash modules for NWN, which proves that 3.0 (which is similar enough to 3.5, which is only an improvement) is a very good system to make a diablo-like with.

 

Meatdog:
I understand your points, but a game, while following reality in some points, should evade it in others. Sure, you need to learn how to run effectively, but you need to use the bathroom, too. Players don't want to do that, they want the game idealized. Some may want to learn to run and jump properly, I understand, but I don't. As for repeditive training, that is only good to a degree. That lets you perform the act faster and with less concentration while also building whatever limits you have by pushing yourself. It also, however, ingrains any mistakes in form you have, and it can't let you actually punch/kick/cast a spell better, i.e. with more skill. The primary aspect of XP in most RPGs is learning to do things better because you had to. This is why sparring is used so much in martial arts.
In the same manner, spells should be fueled by a 'realistic' system. Ok, magic isn't real, at least, not D&D style magic, but we can interpolate some things. The whole D&D idea that the magic casts the spell and the mage just 'channels' it, which is how they explain 'memorizing' the same spell 3 times and forgetting it after you cast it, is BS. Exertion is the limiting factor in just about any activity, whether it be physical or mental or spiritual. Casting spells should reflect that.

 

I decided to open a thread on this topic in the BioWare forums (DA forums to be exact) and it already has obtained some replys (though none from Bioware Staff). It seems it is known what DA will be using. Here is the quote:

View the topic Here. I'll be sure to post if the BioStaff posts anything on the topic .

P.S.: I'm Grave-C4 on their forums.

 

What we need is somthing new, not as simple like in games as sacred, but not to foggie like the D&D can be. The fuel as in memory or mana is the least important point of all. the spells are.

the reason wy I dislike the mana systems is the number of spells and the unavoidable skilltree. you get a number of points and can put those in all the skills you want. A thief levels as a thief and cannot get so strong to use two handed weapons. or make a fighter and give it two spells. (heal fireball)Every sinlgeplay rpg I have played had that system. But not the D&D and that is why I love it.

It is not the man I fear, it is the... Well, to me D&D is just a thing until somthing better comes along. Morrowind was a step i the right direction.

So now bioware is going to give it a go. Mana? Fine, but HOW?

 

I guess we'll find out when the game is out (god knows when!). They did mention it would be their own system, so it won't simply be a Diablo system.

 

The danger for spellcasting lies not so much in the fueling system as well in the unbalancing of the spell choices. Most games so far have had must-have spells and junk. I hope they will try to make all spells as usefull, if just to different people/uses.

 

Skilltrees? For spells? I think the only game I've played that had that was Lionheart. If they do a FF style spell system, I won't have any inherrant complaints, but I hope they get more inventive than that.

 

Diablo 2 also has skill trees for spells (correct me if I'm wrong).