Sorcerer vs. Mage

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My guess is that this has been done before but I can't find it, so maybe someone will point me in the direction of this discussion, but anyway,

Will a sorcerer get the upper level spells that mages do, eventually? I'm just worried that with my sorcerer, later in the game, I won't be able to cast the higher level spells and will be at a disadvantage. note: I don't cheat. a.k.a. removing the exp cap.

 

I think that the sorcerer is better than the mage, yes you have less spell and you cannot learn anymore spell, but you learn more when your level increase so, just choose the right spell and you can kill anything, and you dont have to memorize with a sorcerer, your spell is ready for any situation.

My choice would be on the sorcerer.
Chris

 

I love playing a sorcerer. The flexibility is amazing. You don't need a thief, cuz you can get Knock some 6-8 times/rest in chapter 2. Go sorcerer, but pick your spells carefully.

Hurray-Goblin Chief!

[This message has been edited by Lothar (edited April 25, 2001).]

 

You won't get level 9 spells but neither will a regular mage. You can always use scrolls just as a regular mage would have to.

 

Thanks, I think I'll just keep with the sorcerer then.

 

Why wont you get level 9 spells?

 

Both mages and sorcerers cap out on experience before they can get the ability to memorize level 9 spells . The way around this is the experience cap remover which you can conviently get at this site! Nifty!

 

I'd say that if you are experienced with the game and have considerable knowledge about mage spells, a sorcerer would be a better pick. I hear lots of griping(not here, mind you) about how "sorcerers only get to choose a few spells and then they're stuck with them!" Well, if they're good spells, who cares? How many mage spells do you use anyway? Not to mention that sorcerers are more versatile and can cast many more spells than even a specialist mage. Plus, when the unlock a new spell level they can usually cast 3 times from that level immediately, while a regular mage would have 1 spell. In addition to all of that, they max out on lower level spells MUCH faster. So by the time you unlock lv 6 spells you'll probably be able to cast 6 lvl fours and about 4 level fives.

 

Time for a sorcerer list

* Spells cast/day *
1. 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2. 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
3. 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4. 6 3 0 0 0 0 0 0
5. 6 4 0 0 0 0 0 0
6. 6 5 3 0 0 0 0 0
7. 6 6 4 0 0 0 0 0
8. 6 6 5 3 0 0 0 0
9. 6 6 6 4 0 0 0 0
10. 6 6 6 5 3 0 0 0
11. 6 6 6 6 4 0 0 0
12. 6 6 6 6 5 3 0 0
13. 6 6 6 6 6 4 0 0
14. 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 0
15. 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 0
16. 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
17. 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4

* Spells known/level *
1. 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2. 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
3. 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4. 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
5. 4 2 0 0 0 0 0 0
6. 4 2 1 0 0 0 0 0
7. 5 3 2 0 0 0 0 0
8. 5 3 2 1 0 0 0 0
9. 5 4 3 2 0 0 0 0
10. 5 4 3 2 1 0 0 0
11. 5 5 4 3 2 0 0 0
12. 5 5 4 3 2 1 0 0
13. 5 5 4 4 3 2 0 0
14. 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 0
15. 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 0
16. 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1
17. 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2

 

While many people think that sorcerers at very good, but consider this.

Advantages of sorcerers:
1)Can cast tons of spells more than a regular mage

2)No need to select spells to memorize, thus very adaptable to suitations(when need to unlock chest, it is already memorized, or cancel an invisibility with a true-seeing spell)

3)No need scrolls which can be sold for $$$$

4)Certain higher level spells that are not normally available or sold(spell trigger, etc.) can still be learnt.

Disadvantages
1)Cannot memorize spells which results in
a)Loss of experience from memorizing spells
b)Cannot provide for every suitation
E.g: You wouldn't waste your precious spell slots on spells like divination, mass invisibility, protection from energy ,demonic magic, symbols of stun/death/fear. Yet these will be vital like when a mage cast mislead and you are practically helpless unless you have a scroll, or escaping the drow city and no mass invisibility to cover your party or a very powerful mage releasing all sorts of area- damage spells and no protection from energy to save you or deprived from enjoying the fun of watching a powerful demon trash the enemy, etc. (Note: I know you can have other mages covering up for these loss of spells, but that entirely defeats the purpose of having a sorcerer if you still need other mages to save your ass)

Conculsion: Sorcerers are just good artilery with a group but impossible in solo, while mage/specialist can be good for both solo and group-fire power although not as good as sorcerers in terms of fire-power

[This message has been edited by Wizard advocate (edited April 26, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Wizard advocate (edited April 26, 2001).]

 

I had selected these spells to my sorcerer:

level 1: magic missile, shield, protection from evil, spook, identify

level 2: acid arrow, stinking cloud, web, mirror image, blur

level 3: fireball, lightning bolt, dispel magic, slow

level 4: stoneskin, improved invisibility, red fireshield, greater malison

level 5: breach, lower resistance, sunfire, cone of cold

level 6: spell deflection, protection from normal weapons, true sight

level 7: spell turning, finger of death, ruby ray of reversal

level 8: abi dalzim's horrid wilting, summon fiend

At lower levels he needed the party's help, but in later levels(14 and up), he alone could defeat entire parites.

He collected the 36% of the kills in my party! Not bad for a single spellcaster!

 

I haven't tried sorcerer in a group so I don't know about that, but I've tried it solo and if anything it's too easy. To say that it's impossible is plain ridiculous.

If you ever need one of those seldom used spells just pick up your scroll-case.

 

In reply to the post by Wizard advocate:

Loss of experience b/c can't learn from scrolls.
I will not argue that one. This and the fact that a Sorcerer can't dual class are the disadvantages compared to other mages.

Cannot provide for every suitation
He can probably prepare as well as any character can. He can still cast spells from scrolls, so a sorcerer would do well to carry two or three scroll cases along!

You wouldn't waste your precious spell slots on spells like divination, mass invisibility, protection from energy ,demonic magic, symbols of stun/death/fear.
No, a sorcerer should not select any of those spells, because they are not very useful and certainly not needed.

... a mage cast mislead and you are practically helpless unless you have a scroll, or escaping the drow city and no mass invisibility to cover your party...

True Sight is arguably the most important level 6 spell for a Sorcerer to have.
You don't need to be invisible to leave Ust'Natha. You just need to leave directly when told so. Anyway, nothing stops you from using Potion of invisibility.

... mage releasing all sorts of area- damage spells and no protection from energy...
I have never found that to be a problem. I never even use Protection form Magic Energy.

... the fun of watching a powerful demon trash the enemy...
You mean Cacofiend and Summon Fiend, right? Well I agree that it can be fun to see them attack, but use a scroll once or twice to check it out. Then you can rely on other summoning spells like Spider Spawn, Animate Dead and Mordenkainen's Sword.

Sorcerers are just good artilery with a group but impossible in solo
Oh, how wrong this statement is!
A sorcerer can certainly go solo.

I'd like to hear why you consider a specialist mage better than a Sorcerer for soloing!

 

In reply to Tin_Man's sorcerer spell selection:

What do you think about these changes?

Level 3: Melf's Minute Meteors and Haste instead of Dispel Magic and Lightning Bolt.
MMM is a +5 weapon!
Dispel Magic is overrated (except for the Inquisitor ), effect depends on the levels of the casters involved.
Both Fireball and Lightning Bolt is one too many.

Level 4: Secret Word instead of Fireshield Red.
Need something against the spell protections.

Level 5: Chaos instead of Cone of Cold.
Chaos is a good area effect spell that only effects enemies.

Level 7: Get Spell Sequencer instead of Finger of Death here or else take Spell Trigger at level 8.

Level 8: Simulacrum and Spell Trigger.
Abi Dalzim's is popular, but it's quite similar to Cloudkill/Death Fog. I think a level 8 spell should be more versatile.

Note that these changes are not intended for a solo sorcerer.

 

While we're at it, what's so hard about killing everything in the Drow city? I depopulate that place everytime. I make a point of routing every drow from every nook and cranny and making a charred or sliced mess of them. But then, that's just me.

 

I agree ENTIRELY with Zorac, my sorcerer solo game is the only one i quit because it was so easy that it was beginning to get boring...and i can't say i've ever used any type of invisibility in ust natha, if you leave right away, no one even goes hostile. Like I said, it's a matter of understanding all the spells in the game, and knowing which ones to choose. And who cares if you lose exp. from scribing scrolls, exp. isn't much of a problem solo

 

Earl Grey!

I tried Melf's minute meteors out...but i think they aren't so good, because my sorcerer has so high THACO with them(I think 8?) that he doesn't hurt higher armor classed enemies. I should have needed the +5 weapon against Kangaxx but I never hit him!
The dispel magic has but one purpose. That is to remove the hostile spell effects from party members, no more. It has worked almost every time.
I agree that cone of cold should be replaced with chaos(good idea)
I wouldn't change finger of death for it is one of the best necromantic spells around. Save vs. death with -2 penalty or die! This spell deserves one slot I think.
I had a bug with the sequencers. The game let my sorcerer store first level spells only. It was annoying so i sadly left the sequencers out of my repertoire.
Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is a marvelous spell, for it only affects enemies and packs a very high rate of damage. It is the best "safe" damage spell around. Incendiary cloud is too dangerous!
About secret word, let me tell you something.
I recognized in my lich battles, that it is not worth the time to remove the targets defense spells. Area affect spells, and summoning spells had worked marveously in these situations. A few sunfire bursts, a few fire protected (priest spell level 3)warriors one or two breach and the lich or mage is no more. It's a good quick method dealing with mages who don't use protection from energy(I experienced that no enemy had use that line of protection!).
So long!

 

Ok some points i agree and some points i don't, maybe it is because i have never soloed as a sorcerer, BUT......
can someone explain to me when soloing:

1)How when starting out do you surive all the traps without a spell protection until you get spell deflection?
2)Are your attacking tactics very monotonus?
(Always casting the same thing in the same procedures)
3)do you always have to stop by a spell store to pick you a spell which you do not have for your next move?
4)Managed to dodge the enemy melee people with no tankers unless your tight spell slots permits one summoned creature, and even if you do have what is it?
5)How many of you solo sorcerers actually have the patience to wait for symbols of stun/fear in favour of chaos and confusion spells?

These will do for now until i can think of more.

 

To TIN_MAN:
You could get either the +4 staff from Adventurer's Mart or Staff of the Magi from the Twisted Rune gang. Kangaxx has AC-2, so is not too hard to hit.

Good point on the Abi Dalzim spell, it is certainly worth considering.

Secret Word looks good, but I have the same experience as you that it's not needed very often. Maybe it should be left out of the repertoire.

To Wizard Advocate:

1. The majority of spells do straight damage, so you just take it head on. Buy scrolls and use only when you know it's needed. So quicksave before opening any container. Some traps you can avoid.

2. You adapt yourself to the enemy. Here are a few attack combos:
- web/Spider Spawn.
- Greater Mailson/Chaos.
- Melf's Acid Arrow and run away until it has run it's course.
- Stone Skin/Haste/Mirror Image followed by Tenser's Transformation.
- Animate Dead/Mordenkainen's Sword, Haste them and then back up with spells.
- Sleep on low level monsters

3. Keep three scroll cases almost filled with scrolls. Fill up whenever you get to a store. You'll should know the weakness of your spell repertoire and get scrolls to cover it.

4. It's really important that you always can summon monsters. At the start you use Spider Spawn, then Animate Dead and Mordenkainen's Sword. You can also find Spider Figurine and Horn of Valhalla early in Athkatla.

5. I use Chaos.
At level 8 you take two of Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Simulacrum or Spell Trigger before picking Symbol of Stun/Fear/Death.