Sexism?

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A discussion on this started in the "Romance Mathematics" topic -- perhaps it needs its own topic. I'm eager to hear what people on these boards think about sexism.

First, a definition. This is just *my* definition, feel free to include your own. Sexism is not the recognition that men and women are different -- any fool can see that. Sexism is the belief that the things that make women different, real or imagined, make them not as rational, smart, clean... not as *good* as men. Or the reverse, as I have certainly met sexist women.

Obviously sexism -- like racism, from which it is no different -- can hurt people's feelings. But I think the worst thing about it is that -- like racism -- it creates barriers between people. A perception of others' inferiority prevents you from truly getting to know them, and, in the case of sexism, you would be missing out on half-the-world's worth of opinions.

So tell me. Do you think the people you know are sexist? Is it a problem?

 

Coming from a small town, I have little experience with negative things like racism. However, sexism is something often talked about, and if one of the teachers in school happens to be sexist, one can be sure that they will not be popular. Personally, I think sexism is silly. Just as silly as any other kind of prejudice. We're all people.

 

Yes, sexism is a problem. The two sexes ARE different, and rather than celebrate the differences, we try to act like there aren't any. There are some (few) things that one sex can do better than the other most of the time. There are always exceptions.
If a woman and a man are both doing something (a job, participating in an online game) and are equally good at it, then they should be treated the same. This unfortunately is often not the case.
Sexism, bad.
Racism, bad.

 

Of course I'm sexist. I'm a boy. I like being a boy. I don't want girls in my bathroom when I'm going wee wee.

I think there needs to be a distinction between good and bad sexism. Good sexism is (IMO) things like single sex education, separate public toilets, giving up your seat to a woman on the subway, etc.

Bad sexism is not paying a woman as much as a man for the work she's doing.

 

I never though't I'd ever agree with Shralph Another funny example for bad sexism: A friend of mine studies psychology, this subject has about 80+% female students. Anyway, there are some separate course for weman only - for equality Twisted world

Weeee! Post #2626! Schnapszahl!

[ August 08, 2002, 17:00: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

 

May I ask why the h**l sexual education should be differentiated? That sounds very very silly in my ears, I agree with what else Shralp said. Perhaps not the bus thingy, the only ones I rise for are people that seem to have problem standing.

 

Methylviolet, why even bother about what people you don't care about, say? As long as they just stick to talking the talk. I ignore them. So what if they make a barrier? The vast majority of men and women, who still like each others company, will stay on the same side of that "barrier", right? Let the sexist morons distance themselves, they aren't worth it anyway; men or women.
William Shakespeare once wrote that even the purest of all snow does not avoid others' taint, so to partially quote yourself. He didn't recognize *your* worth, so he must be *flawed.* The sexists are flawed, not you

EDIT; And I think I could crawl to the moon and back before you all agree on, what sexism is and even when it is bad or not; across gender, national, parenting and age differences or misunderstandings. These barriers (passive or rather non-deliberate barriers) don't isolate sexist morons from the sain and good folks and therefore in a way are much worse than the barriers (active or deliberate barriers) sexism "creates". We often call all these passive barriers fruitful and educational though; so how much effort does it take just to ignore the "sexist jokes/patronizing" and the barriers they might create?

[ August 08, 2002, 21:02: Message edited by: ArchAngel ]

 

These are jut my views: I am not sexist but I am blunt and a bit too harsh with my words.

The sexes are different, and deserve to be treated differently, Job divides are stupid, men and woman are both capable of doing the same amount of work, same quality and same pay. The minds of the different sexes work differently, there is no denying it as it is true, even if outcomes are same/simular it is achieved through different ways.

 

How boring your all so GOOD and sexism seems to be a foreign word for you.
For me it's fun shocking men with male behaviour. Last time i had tenosynovitis my turkish colleagues asked me if my husband had hit me. And i told them, it was the other way round. Since then they have respect and as i told them maybe i should exercise Kung-Fu again they were real anxious about that.
Yeah, i'm the female reincarnation of Arnold Schwarzenegger.

 

I made a very extensive reply on this in the "Romance Mathematics" thread, and as I do not want to type all that again, I'll simply debate with what is posted in this thread.

Basically, sexism is saying that one gender is better than another, period. It is also generalizing all members of a gender based on the actions of a few. For instance, saying "All women are vain airheads who spend far too much money on clothing". In actuality, some are, however I know more than a few men who are like this as well. This cannot be applied to all women as a whole, however.

However I can completely agree with this statement. When you believe that you are better than someone else, you are likely to act as such, which is the quickest way for resentment to build up.

Some of you are discussing sexual seperation in classes as a positive thing. Supposedly, it is. The best explanation I've heard is that whenever the other gender is not present, it is much easier to concentrate.

As far as giving up your seat on the bus for a woman, I'm unsure whether that would be good or bad. It is generally the gentlemanly thing to do, to show courtesy to a woman that you wouldn't show to a man, but this might offend some women.

Archangel is correct, try not to be offended by the behavior of idiots. They are the ones that will never enjoy a truly fulfilling relationship with a member of the opposite sex.

 

Oh yeah about the bus thing, i would ask if you think i'm ill or to old to stand. I hate it if men try to help me put on my jacket and i`m really offended if a man wants to help me carrying something f.e. a monitor. I want to have my muscles. But i'm not a usual woman i know.

 

Girl Power is sexist.

Women only lessons are sexist.

The majority of children going to their mother in custady battles is sexist.

Women and Men are diffrent, we are more sutited to diffrent things, for example women are better at sowing because the majoirty of women have thinner hands than men, and most men are better at building work than women becuase men are naturally stronger. When we learn to acept this the world will be a better place.

And finally you see woman clambouring for the same rights as men yet I have never seen a campaign to allow women to fight on the front line in war....

 

Speaking of jobs -- I just got a job today, a really super-cool one! Yay! I never have to wear the damn interview suit again!

That was off topic -- but I had to say it.

Anyway.

What beautiful thoughtful responses. First, I wanted to clarify something I said:
---------------------------------------------
Methylviolet, in poor Kitrax's joke topic: "I have never understood men who make sexist remarks in front of women. Don't they *want* to get laid?"

Ragusa, in that topic: "Well, I think it's time for me to come to the defense of men here, instead of slamming your fun. This is also a sexist generalization, saying that men are incapable of thinking of anything but sex. From my observations, this is sometimes true, sometimes not. It depends on how mature the man is. Some men desire "intellectual stimulation" in addition to the physical side, similar to what psychologists say that women desire."
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No, no -- I did not mean to make *that* hoary generalization. (And don't get me started on "what psychologists say!!") I hate that one. Obviously in a world of poets and scientists and everyone else any given man has much more on his mind than sex, as I know from painful experience. The flip side of that stereotype is that women are *not* interested in sex and only "want to be held" -- which, again, is completely false, as I also know from painful experience.

But I believe that, while we are not slaves to our biological imperatives, we are not *deaf* to them either, and that the average person thinks about it quite often. So the point is? I can only speak for myself, but I am inclined to be nice to the men I meet because I might want to sleep with them sometime. Pure and simple. Any male-bashing I might be inclined to do, I'm going to wait until they are out of earshot.

That's all I was saying.

Archangel: "Methylviolet, why even bother about what people you don't care about, say?"
Because it's fun. I get to feel superior when they say something really dumb.

Oblate, you, as always, are too cool for words but I have to disagree with your bus behavior. Never refuse a gift. Any gift, from anyone, ever. There is too little kindness in the world for it to be appropriate to throw people's gifts back in their faces. If some guy wants to give you his seat on a bus, smile and thank him for Crissakes.

Tal, you're right that some people don't hold with the views just stated, but I hope you won't really quit being considerate of old people because some are jerks. I stand up on public transit for pregnant women, people with babies, and old people -- and no one has ever failed to graciously accept.

And really, *civility* is the key issue here -- making disparaging remarks about a group to which someone present belongs is not civil. Telling someone off for trying -- however misguidedly or unnecessarily -- to be *nice* is not civil. Prejudging someone based on some group membership is not civil. And shutting down any discussion of human differences is not civil.

So let's not. More about single-sex education later...

 

I was gonna make a sexist remark on that... But.. Naah, that would spoil the seriousity that is sure to come bouldering in now; like californian waves. Similar posts over and over again...

[ August 09, 2002, 11:13: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

I think the key thing here is that MOST women are better at sewing, and MOST men are better at building... personally, I can't do either, while my girlfriend has a real talent for home improvement...

The fundament for both sexism and racism is prejudice. To assume that a woman will need help with carrying her monitor. To assume that a man who has been through a traumatic experience won't be interested in talking about it. Or to assume that a black man driving a nice car must've stolen it.

So the key thing here has got to be to adjust to each individual, and not just make it easier on ourselves by pigeonholing anyone. Of course it's much, much easier for a man to handle the first date with a woman if he strictly follows the standard codes: helping with the coat, the chair, paying the bill, and so on... but it can end up in a disaster if the woman doesn't care for being pampered like that at all.

Some women like it, and some don't. The best way to find out is by asking, or by just being cautious of the other person's reaction when you do something like let the woman go first through the door. All through this post I talk about simple social codes, and mostly about how men should act towards women.. it's just an example, of course the same thing applies for women.

 

I just can't understand people who claim to be heterosexual but never have anything nice to say about the opposite sex. I have many female friends who claim to be happily married, yet they are always sending "useless husband" and "dumb male" jokes around - consistently enough to show a pattern. I am just bewildered, just as I am when their husband tells jokes that disparage women. If you think it's funny to put someone down, how can you have a happy and loving relationship with them? And anyway, how can anyone bash men? They're so CUTE. Actually, so are women. Vive la difference!

Mr Writer: there are indeed feminist campaigns to get women into front-line combat units in the United States. I believe British women already have the right to serve in combat units, as do Canadian women, which is probably why you don't see women campaigning for that particular right.

 

MethV:

"Do you think the people you know are sexist? Is it a problem? "

Yes. Nearly everyone I know is sexist. No, it is not a problem; I enter that variable into my algorithm.

Am I sexist? Yes; under the proper conditions.

Let's take a look at a society which is very non-sexist.

Ever been to Israel?

Me neither.

But, I've seen Jewish chits in uniform. And they are:

A. Not immune to the draft. Pregnant or not. Out of the country or not.
B. Standing guard duty with a loaded weapon; West Bank or elsewhere. Right next to their male "co-worker".
C. Have to do a different amount of pushups, but are "trained" to deal with rape as a part of their duty.
D. Just as awesome/deadly/frightening/disgusting as the next male army boy.

Isralie chits are hard; they are hard, and trained to be hard.

Now, think of an entire (260,000,000 people) society of people who can eat their own dead; live off cactus for weeks on end; and kill the enemy without fear or reget.

*WHEW*

I think there are many capable females; I think "environment" plays just as important a role as "genetics"; and I think Isralie chits scare me.

[edit: typo. changed an "x" to a "t".]

[ August 09, 2002, 02:53: Message edited by: ejsmith ]

 

Obviously, it has to be admitted that genetically, certain kinds of people are better suited to do different things. Be it environmental or genetic, many of the popularly-held stereotypes exist for a reason. Oriental families have a tendency to be more educationally strict. This is not a stereotype, for I do not hold it to all of the kind. However, statistically, overwhelmingly, this is a characteristic of the people. If it were not so, it would not be such a prevelant view.

I do not believe that everyone deserves an equal shake- I believe they deserve an equal chance to prove themselves. Insofar, one should not judge an individual for any reason beyond what can be seen on that basis- individual. That being said, there is such a thing as reverse-bias. An individual that is more qualified than another should not be denied that qualification because the other is in the minority.

Scenario: Were two applicants to apply to a position, without an interview, without their race or sex disclosed, to whom would the job go? Whichever person has the most qualifications that pertain to the job. Say App#1 is such the person. App#1 deserves the job, no? Being entirely blind to the discriminatory factors, yes. Now if #1 is male, and #2 is female? Or vice-versa? #1 is black, #2 is white? Or vice-versa? Should these be the determining factors to a job that has nothing to do with the job description? Or college entrance grounds? Absolutely not. Sadly, measures have had to have been taken to prevent this, and those measures have often overstepped the middle line and ensured jobs or opportunities to those that were not the most qualified- but rather, the lesser of two candidates. And when I say this, I'd to add I've seen it go all ways- jobs given to white kids because they're white, given to black kids because the white shopkeeper doesn't want to be seen as a racist, given to men because they're stronger, or women because they're cleaner. If the latter things are true- the individual is stronger or the woman is cleaner, on a case by case basis- fine. Such inclinations are at the whims of those doing the hiring. That is the way it should be. A person should be able to choose the best candidate. Period. Anything else is purely unbased and idiotic.

In summary- to make assumptions based on things other than the individual- such as purely being "white" (i'm more of a peachish/tan) or "black" (i've never seen someone who was ACTUALLY black. unless they were burned... no offense to any burn victims.) is horrible. But at the same level of regard, IF that person proves to be inferior in performance to another- they do not deserve a lift up. That is just like discriminating against the other person. Besides- who knows? I'm sure they can do inferior work if asked to do so...

Amon-Ra

[ August 09, 2002, 06:10: Message edited by: Amon-Ra ]

 

Just to interject *my* definition of sexism:

To let a person's sex in any way influence the actions or potential for future actions.

The policy which allows women two more minutes than men on the mile run required during basic training in the Army/Navy/Air Force in the US is sexist.

So is saying that a divorced family's children should live with their mother because she has greater nurturing qualities.

So is disallowing women to participate in frontline combat units.

So is saying only men should work as referees in pro basketball games.

So is maternity leave.

Etcetera...sexism is a tricky thing.