September 11th

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According to an article i read in The Guardian yesterday, an Islamic group (soz, can't remember the name) plan to hold a party/celebration to celebrate the life of the hijackers from 9/11, somewhere in East London. Although the meeting has been condemned by some Muslims, it's still going ahead at a 'secret' location. Should this be allowed to happen on 'our' soil, especially as so many Brits perished on that day? I am a fairly laid back person, but this has angered me greatly. We hear countless times that Islam is a peaceful religion, it's obviously not peaceful enough if certain quaters see it fit to commemorate the lives of a handful of men who butchered 3000 innocent lives.
How can we in the West ever attempt to understand a religion where people kill so freely, then celebrate afterwards? The 'good' Muslims out there should be doing everything in their power to stop events like this going ahead.

 

Suicide bombing is not against their religion according to most Muslims. How do you feel about Muslims now? Great “British” people huh. [snip]

[Warning pending.] -Tal

[ September 10, 2004, 21:14: Message edited by: Sarevok• ]

 

Luntatics be everywhere.

 

Most Muslims are peaceful - that's why I'm surprised the Muslim population in Britain - fairly large from what I hear - hasn't spoken up more about this. This is radical Islam, which is not what most Muslims practice.

 

I wouldnt even call it radical islam, I would call it radical arabic nationalism.

 

Do you have any evidence to back this up or is it opinion? In my opinion any society that would take to the streets for parades and celebrations to honor the lives of suicide terrorists may not exactly fit the definition of peaceful.

 

Seems that way. Rather than being proud of their own country they're thankful for some terrorist group butchering civilians. Question is, how do you respond?

 

I'll always remember september 11...

...as the day Pinochet's troups burned all Pablo Neruda's books, and annihilated his collection of 'cocilles'. What a tragic day .

And of course the, actually more tragic, event that came down to the WTC-buildings. No offense meant in any way.

Muslims peaceful? More or less they are. In Belgium, there's just a high percentage of muslims that express themselves in an aggressive way rather than just arguing with people. But that's Turkey moslims. These are Desert moslims, as I like to call them. They are peaceful, if only the Americans, with an undisputedly less peaceful intentions, would get of their territory.

(forgive me if I sound ignorant. I have nearly no knowledge of the matter.)

EDIT; Something just not seem right. They seem to have devellopped a hatred never known before to mankind. How? Is it their religion?

 

The reason no one has spoken up about it is that they don't care. Most likely 99% of them will celebrating September the 11. I don't think you will find a Muslim that would have a bad word to say about the whole thing.

 

Sarevok, as part of standard education here (for the record, I'm in a liberal Christian highschool) I know a bit of the Quran (don't expect quotes, can't find the reader) and suicide, in any form, is forbidden by Islam.
There will always be powerhungry maniacs, or clueless rebels, of any denomination, who will use religion as a tool (be it deliberately, or with conviction).
As one doesn't judge all Christians on extremist radicals of some sort, one shouldn't judge Muslims on those sorts.
@Abomination: there are fanatics that see any and all US citizens as their enemies. Would you not rejoice in such a great blow dealt to your enemies?

 

They don't see it as suicide, they see it as a means of defending themselves or so I have read.

 

I thought they were going to see Allah or whatever the hell it is. How sad of them to still let themselves be manipulated by religion. Sad cases.

 

Destroying the WTC wasn't dealing a 'great blow'. From a logical point of view - destroying the TWC won't damage your enemy in any major way - you've just killed civilians. The destruction of the WTC hasn't affected the US' military might and it has only generated more hostility towards your group. They're not celebrating a 'victory' - they're celebrating the slaughter of people who did not affect them in any way.

 

Islamic suicide bomber a lured into believing that they are martyrs and that they sacrifices there lives fore there religion, which will bring them strait to heaven, and this is not something specific to Islam, all religions have had there overzealous fanatics, wee had over crusades, inquisitions and so on, even today there are fanatic Christian organizations out there. especially in the southern USA some of these groups have made many truly horrible acts of violence, but fore instance Israel has some seriously sick Christian fanatics.

that is just racist BS and do you have anything to back it up? bs like that makes me really angry.

 

Not a major blow? The US and the world were and still are scared ****less, color codes flying around, tightened security measures, rash actions against percieved terrorist threats(yeah, I'm talking Iraq), violations of human rights, and wondering wether that turk you saw on the street being suspicious checking a school might be a terrorist, hmm better call the anti-terrorist squad.
Terrorists don't try to affect military might, but try to bring fear into the people, (that's why they are called terrorists, duh)

yeah, they are celebrating a victory, as much as the Americans were celebrating when Saddam was removed..

 

@ Morgoth
Americans celebrating Saddam's removal from power was because Saddam is no longer a threat. Destroying the WTC is an act of malice with no purpuose but to kill innocents. There is a rather large difference between removing an oppresive dictator from power and salughtering innocents. Most of the western world isn't happy about the collatoral damage inflicted upon civilians in Iraq however some fanatics are celebrating the slaughter of US civilians. There is a difference.

For example - I'm glad Saddam has been removed from power but I'm no going to celebrate the day it happened and I'm not going to celebrate the day of the invasion of Iraq and so forth. They might as well be dancing on someones grave.

 

The only difference is the means the attacker has in their disposal. Or depending on perspective, the defender.

Let's make up a little schoostory shall we? Mister X is a terrorist. He wasn't that way originally, but he was raised to believe that the death of his parents, his friends, and the extremely bad state his country is in is all the fault of another country. Now with simple mathematics, mister X quickly realises (like his tutors have been telling him) that their petty little group of people cannot hope to harm this country directly by attacking the army. Afterall, the army of this country is countless times larger and far more powerful with its advanced technology. So mister X, with a little more thinking, understands that essentially the army that has so harmed them, is still run and fueled by the people of this country. These people are completely undefended, and through them they can affect the country this army spawns from far more effectively. Are they innocents? Well sure, some of them, but his friends and family were innocent too. Will it hurt this country when they do this? Heck yeah. So what more is there to think but do it?

The problem with humans, is generalization. Just the very same thing Beren just accused Sarevok of. If someone believes all misery in his life is the fault of another group, then to him anything and anyone affiliated with that group is considered alien. Something not human, something not good, something that deserves what it has coming no matter how innocent they might seem on the outside. This is human nature, not the nature of just some specific group that some of us, humans, find easy to hate for their actions.

The attack against WTC was ingenious. It was a major breakthrough to those who sought to strike the US (and through it the rest of the world). It was also in many ways the only thing the people responsible could do. I'm not talking about Osama here, I'm talking about all the different people required to get the job through. They believed what they were doing was right. They hit the only spot they could to make some damage.

That's the problem really. It's like the age-old question: who is responsible for Mike (30 years old) being a violent bastard condemned with murder. His father who abused him and was a violent bastard himself, or Mike who was unable to change after leaving his home? Or perhaps his father's father before him who was an even meaner bastard than Mike's father. Or maybe it was the germans who tortured Mike's grandfather making him permanently insane and violent?

Who can say? Maybe people aren't ultimately responsible for anything they do. Maybe people really are just reactions, not independent thinking beings like we so seek to believe in.

Here's where the philosophizing gets too deep to contribute to the issue at hand. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that whenever you take things like this personally, you lose the big picture. And when you lose the big picture, you become in essence just like the ones who struck down WTC. Maybe you won't resort to equally drastic means, but in essence the generalizations, the hate, the fear are the same thing manifested differently.

All of this was sad, of course. But there was nothing evil or good about it. It was just human nature. Maybe putting an a-bomb on one or two countries will fix it, probably not. What I'd be more worried about here is the future. As said, already people's freedom is being taken away by organizations seeking to make their lives more safe. Already numerous hate-groups have appeared all around the globe as a response to the growing restlesness caused by 9.11. The world, it seems, is too small for so many different people.

It's a hard choice to make. Wether to live in complete surveilance and safety, which will inevitably lead to control and manipulation and ultimately destroy what I perceive to be the purpose of life. Or to live free, in a world where any day could end in some sad criminal putting his knife or drug injector in your back, or the back of your friends and family, without ever even being caught for the job.

In the end, we're all just victims here. Terrorists and "proper people" alike.

 

There is no difference, an al-qaeda terrorist sees America and all it's civilians as enemy, for them WTC wasn't killing innocents, it was striking a major blow against their enemy
Remember Dresden, wasn't that a terrorist action? It's something like that, to bring fear into the Germans, I've seen people defend Dresden on this board, agreeing with Dresden and not agreeing with 11/9 is just because you found yourself on the wrong side.

 

Hmm.

Kindly explain to me the relevance Dresden has to the events of 9/11. AFAIK, Dresden was an attack on Germany, not an arabic nation, took place 60 years ago, and has nothing to do with 9/11.

Or is your point that 9/11 is okay--somehow NOT morally reprehensible--because American people committed atrocities 60 years ago? That's...a stretch.