Race and Class, Dual Classing Questions

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well i got some questiones.......

which races can dual class???
can i dual class a ranger:archer into druid??
(hmm ranger:archer\thief maybe if it can be done).

and which classes into what....?
I also wonder if a kensai\thief can wear any armor (if so, which?).
im planning on creating another two parties...
a party with chars i intend to make as good as possible and a other with just funny chars with fun spells and stuff and so on....

the powerhouse party will look something like this:

Half-Orc Kensai
Human Monk
Human Thief"kit"\fighter
Human Fighter"kit"\thief
Human Mage:conjuror\cleric
Human Kensai\Mage

i brought two thief dual classed because if i bring only one i wont be able to use thief skills through all the game, hence why i did what i did....also i still wonder which races can dual class since a half-orc fighter\thief is very powerful.

the other party is mainly set up with ideas without consideration on if it can be done or not, hence why i ask u.

Ranger"archer"\druid or thief
Bard"kit"\"class", maybe a spellcasting class.
Fighter\barbarian, yup i have played way to much icwd2...^_^
i will fill up the rest later....but i still wanna now which classes and races u can dual class.

Thanks for any help or view ^_^

oh and the profiencies i will sort out myself....

[ May 09, 2003, 04:20: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]

 

For an excellent dual classing info thread, check out multi vs. dual classing. Lots of problems to sort out here.

First off, only humans can dual class.

The only class that can dual into a druid is a fighter. The archer kit can't dual into anything (unmodded, anyway). The only class a ranger can dual into is a cleric. No thieves.

Kensai thieves can wear NO armor, as they are bound by the kensai's armor restricions. No leather, no bracers, no nuttin'. A kensai/mage can wear mage robes, but that's the only type of armor a kensai will ever be able to wear.

Be aware that you've designed a party that will be very weak armor class-wise. I would do a fighter/priest of some type in your party, unless you want to miss out on almost every piece of good armor in the game. Ranger/clerics are great because they can cast both cleric and druid spells from the getgo.

Bards, monks, barbarians and sorcerers cannot multi or dual class. Yes, I think you have been playing too much IWD2. Totally different rule system.

 

Among other rules . . .

1. Only humans can dual class. Other races can be multiclass, but not dual.

2. Possible dual class combinations are the same as multiclass. A Sorcerer can neither dual nor multiclass, Mage/Druid is not allowed, etc.

3. The first class is allowed to choose a kit, but the second is not. There are a few odd exceptions to this rule, such as an Archer cannot dual to Cleric.

A Kensai/Thief cannot wear any armor until the High Level Ability: Use Any Item is gained. Then he can wear any armor, but thieving skills are disabled for all except elven chain and leather armors.

Bards and Barbarians cannot dual or multiclass, and Druids can only dual or multi with Fighter. I hope this answers your questions .

 

nice...thganks for the help...
this leaves me pondering about certain things...
but as an answer to the first guy that answered me....schrew protection and armor.
i currently use a party where the characters got less use of armors and they do extremely well...
that party is:
Undead hunter
Monk
kensai
fighter\thief (multiclass)
Cleric\mage (multiclass)
sorceror

the fact that ranger:archre cannot dual class sucks since i wont get those archer advantages, but i can always do it a other way....

i also like the fact that my kensai\thief will now be able to wear armor when he\she get the use everything ability. as for the humans only race that can dual class issue, i dont think i will loose anything there.....still hoped if half-elfes good dual class to get their limited resistances.
im also thinking about choosing a wizard slayer instead of a kensai in the fighter"kit"\thief char to get those advantages....

and i have to say yet again....i dont worry about how weak my party is in the beginning since they will be awesome later....
im also pondering about getting a ac rock tank instead of the monk....but as the monk get high ac anyway, im not sure....
another thing i have solved is the weapon proffiency when it comes to my kensai\mage and mage:conjuror\cleric.....my mage:conjuror will use staffs (staff of magi when i get it) and my kensai\mage or a other char will dual wield the flails of ages with a other weapon.....i just havent decided which kind of weapon to use with flail of ages or if i should use a shield with it...(im not a big fan of shields, though i know u can get atleast a 5 armor bonus using a shield, my multiclass cleric\mage use a shield).

 

@ Drumheller

Either you're a big fat stinky copycat or we posted at the same time and I just finished first.

 

@Death Rabbit

Hey . . . I saw it first!

 

crap, why cant a ranger dual into druid, both love the nature dont they, and their skills is nature based isnt it?......oh well...
anyone got any comments which Fighter kit i should choose for the fighter"kit"\thief
and do anyone have any suggestions for which thief kit i should choose for the thief"kit"\fighter.....
im pondering about these kits:
wizard slayer or kensai
Assasin, and the other kit (not swashbuckler, those advantages is neutralized by the fighter class later).

hmm.....since everyone says that celestial fury and cromfayer is a good dual wielding option i wonder which other GM i should use with the other chars....also im pondering about letting one of the thiefs get two handed proffiencies to be able to use the carsomyr when they get the use everything ability.
hmm...maybe bastard swords\longswords is a good choice......then again, there is some good two handed weapons out there besides carsomyr.....
i gotta think about this.....
must look at the weapons i got in my other save when i have finished that one to decide that...

i also must clearly point out that its the end result that counts.....i wont great chars, not great in the beginning and bad in the end, or ok beginning and ok end... i want chars that will rock when i have finished the game....

as for another reply to the Kensai\thief wearing armour when thief get use everything ability: i will probably get the silver scales when visiting watchers keep and use that on the thief and the shadow dragon scales on the other thief....but i still have to see about that one....

 

Like I said, dual to a cleric from a ranger. Or just do a multi-class - in the longrun, especially in TOB, you'll find they're more powerful anyway. They can cast BOTH druid and cleric spells, with your only limitations being bladed weapons (of which druids only have daggers and scimitars...no big deal) and shapeshift ability, which isn't that great anyway. If you multiclass instead of dual, you'll have access to both cleric and ranger high level abilities, whereas if you dual you'll just get cleric. Seriously, read the thread I posted above.

Here's a suggestion: multi class fighter/thief Once again, you're denying yourself high level abilities. Dual classes aren't as effective in TOB as they were in SoA. But if you HAVE to dual, I would go with a kensai/thief and specialize in Katanas, or an assasin/fighter. I'm not sure you can do either due to kit restrictions.

I wouldn't. Grand mastery is a waste of 3 valuable proficiencies. Why get grand mastery in one weapon when you can specialize in 2 and add something like single weapon style (+1 to AC, better critical hits with THIEF weapons)? All you get with grand mastery over specialization is +1 to hit/damage and -1 to spead factor IIRC. Not worth 3 proficiencies. I prefer the versatility myself. But if you HAVE to GM, do it with a thief weapon so you can still backstab with it. Otherwise, there's no point in dualing to a fighter from a thief.

FYI - it'll kill your thieving abilities...even backstab. It's still chainmail and it ain't elven.

 

Thanks for the help yet again....
i did read ur druid\ranger tread, just had to get some anger out ^_^

anyway....my current kensai is now on level 24 and got -19 main hand and -20 off hand thac0 uing that summon longsword u get in watchers keep and cromfayer.
so i dont think dual classing will harm much there. abilities dont concern me much either as i almost never use them anyway....only ability i wish for is the "use everthing feat" for the thieves.....i also have to state that a dual class get better profiencies than the multiclass whereas multiclass get better abilities.
i read the link tread u posted and i dont agree with the thac0 he posted... though it might be correct...(maybe i should check it out with cluaconsole..hmm..)..anyway i dont heartely disagree....gotta check it out first. also, the weapon used do affect the thac0 u now ^_^

well i thank u yet again for ur help and insight.
i will do alittle research....before i do what i have decided.

anyway, my fighter\thief didnt loose any thief abilities (including backstabbing) when i equipted white dragon scale....
just for ur information ^_^

[ May 09, 2003, 01:29: Message edited by: Death Whisper ]

 

(everyone's name in this thread starts with a "D"...two start with "Death"....just noticed that...wieeerd...)

 

i just checked this:

i just checked out a char i did with clua (just to get this info)....

kensai mage 13\18

he uses staff of the magi
grandmastery in quarterstaffs
2 points in two handed weapons, 2 in single weapons.

Base thac0=8
thac0=-6
i also manage to get his ac down to -7 by also equipting a ione helmet stone, robe of vecna, ring of gaxxx, ring of protection +2 and cloak of sewers.

also did it this way:
i did it with grandmastery in longsword and 3 points in dual wielding too, i got a thac0 of -6 again with daystar, with cromfayer and daystar this decreased to -7 and -10 dual wielding.

i tested a kensai\thief just now
the thac0 was:
main hand -21 with celestial fury
off hand -21 with crom fayer

i think this dual worse than multi talk is quit crap....
i tested out the char i wanted to dual class:
http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001884#000010

and they proved to be very good....
the thaco could possibly get better, but i didnt have the resources to test the chars out good enough sadly...
Also, the lack of ability thing is bull**** too.

the only char that got very few abilities was my assasin\fighter

and i have to point out that my kensai\thief got 640 points to distribute in thieving skills + those 40-50 he get when u dual class which is a 690 points total....

[ May 09, 2003, 02:26: Message edited by: Death Whisper ]

 

Sigh.
What's the point in trying to enlighten people when they just don't listen.

 

i do listen....
u and the other say that thac0 and abilities (HLA)
with a dual classed character will suck......
i checked out my current multiclassed fighter\thief and cluaconsoled a kensai\thief to max level..(kensai thief 26\27 i believe).

When it camed to thac0, damage and attacks per round the dual class won easily, but the multiclass won in the ability area....since the multiclass got more ability points to distribute...(i dont remember if it was the thief"kit"\fighter or kensai\fighter that got few abiltites, but the other got a nice amount).
based upon this and the advantages that a dual class give through kits i would say dual class is better...

but u r right....some dual classes get crappy thac0, thats the kensai\mage...i clua this one to to check it out and i got -6 thac0 with grandmastery in quarterstaffs, and putting the rest in two handed weapon style and single weapon style.....wielding staff of the magi.

i also checked out the mage:conjuror\cleric...his\her thac0 stinked.
with the flail of ages that char got a thac0 of 0, but then again...why throw in ur only true spellcaster into combat.

i understand ur arguments with dual class\multi class..but based upon what i have seen when testing the chars i have to say that dual classes is better....
oh and a last thing....my assasin\fighter got a backstab multiplyer of x7 which is good isnt it.

and i state again that i aint truly ignorant to what u have said. I only argue and discuss and state my oppinion...
and i also have to warn u that i checked those chars out with items i already had gotten with other chars..meaning i couldnt adapt the equiptment....

u r right in the section of abilities, but when it comes to thac0, u r wrong....the dual classes get better thac0 if u get the dualclass right.

now about the ac....shure i wont get any nice ac before later in the game...but that doesnt concern me..u r right in this part.
u r also right that it will be hard to play with this party to...but it is the end result that counts u now.

another thing i know about this party is that the pure kensai and monk (that will stay pure throughout the game) will be the pillar of the party for a long time....
but before spellhold the kensai\mage will get his kensai advantages again thus u got three chars that makes the foundation...
when the times come where the last three chars must dualclass...u will get so much xp that they will gain levels pretty quickly, meaning that u will get decent chars that can make a difference.

i got most of it figured out. and will post how i will form everyone later.

i say again...thank u very much for ur help...and it HAVE been very helpful again....
i also have to thank Karrtock[apach] for helping me out too. especially since it was him who tipped me about the mage:conjuror\cleric.

[Please improve your grammar. Spell out words like "you" and "your" and capitalize "I" and I'm". - BTA]

[ May 09, 2003, 16:53: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]

 

You can not use a Kensai-26/Thief-27 for comparison. At most Kensai-13 before dualing to the second class. Anything more and the time spent in single class is IMO too long for a comparison to be made.

Since your argument is very heavily based on this premise your evaluation is not valid.

Dual class Conjurer/Cleric is interesting, but I don't think it's particularly good.
At what mage level should he dual to cleric?

With regard to the initial post here, what is the purpose of making up a party of six created characters? Will it be more fun than one PC and 1-5 NPC's?
If it is to make the strongest party possible then that party is not it. At the top of my head I'd suggest something like this:

Inquisitor
Sorcerer
mc Fighter/Thief
mc Fighter/Mage
mc Ranger/Cleric

 

well i just finished the game (tob too) with the party that was set up like this:

half orc kensai
half orc kensai (i left the monk out)
kensai\thief
assasin\fighter
conjuror\cleric
kensai\mage

my two kensais got a ac of -3 and -2 (crappy yes) and thac0 of main hand -24 and -22, and the other somewhere around -15 (two handed sword)

the kensai\thief got an ac of -13, thac0 -21 main hand and -21 off hand (celestial fury\dromfayer)

the assasin\thief got backstabb x7 multiplier, ac -9, thac0 -10 (two handed weapon)

the kensai\mage got ac -12, thac0 -6 (quarterstaffs, staff of the magi)

conjuror\cleric ac -13, thac0 -1 (flail of ages with shield).

all chars got attacks per round:4 exept for the kensai\mage and conjuror\cleric.
i think my kensai\thief also got backstabb multiplier though i didnt check that.
i will later when i get time post the entire info and stats and equiptment of everyone....
i played with the tactical and ascension mods (making the game alot more difficult).