Police action in Oslo.

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I've just seen a bunch of Norwegian policemen kicking a woman pressed to the ground and hitting her with rubber staves. What was she doing? Taking part of a demonstration ie scanding anti-war slogans and playing a drum. Opinions please. If anyone knows an official e-mail address to which a protest could be sent, I'll be grateful. For signing the protest with me too. So far I have contacted Amnesty International in Norway (info@amnesty.no).

[ March 23, 2003, 00:36: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

Things like this happen always in demonstrations. The surpise is that this is coming from a scandinavian police, which don't have the bad reputation of german, spanish, italian and greek riot police. I remember that old people (over 70 years old) made a demonstration requesting higher pensions few years ago and the riot police attacked them. It was disgusting.

 

While I certainly don't condone unnecessary police brutality I have found that in most of these clashes with demonstrators the police are justified in using the amount of force that they do. After seeing our wimpy police get pummled twice in a couple of months including the savage maiming of police horses by protestors the general opinion around here is that the police are justified in using whatever force they feel they have to in order to maintain their own safety from these unruly mobs.

Of course I have not seen the incident that you are referring to, and don't know what the protestors did to incite the violence that the police displayed, but unless you saw the whole affair I wouldn't be so quick to judge against the police.

 

Sounds pretty wicked.

But of course, I want to know about the whole circumstances, first.

 

All information that's important is given by me above. More data doesn't really matter in fact - what would you like to know? Exact time, street names, numbers of people and police units? I suppose some more details will be in Monday's newspapers if ever. Considering the fact that TV transmitted from that riot, that is still possible although I doubt they will say much.

EDIT: I saw it. I saw police attacking people speaking and playing drums and striking them down on the ground using not even fighting, but *holding* techniques to increase the pain. Of course police should be authorised to use whatever force necessary for their safety from the mob, but I don't view all people who disagree openly with the government as mob.

[ March 23, 2003, 11:38: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

I saw a news clip of the Oslo protest as well - the Police were using dogs on people who weren't resisting. The tiny bit I saw looked pretty extreme, and the commentator made no mention of what - if anything - the protestors did to deserve such treatment.

Things also got violent in New York City, and again I'm not in a position to know who instigated it. The protests I *did* see here in Philadelphia have all been quite civila nd peaceful. The protestors are going so far as to notify the poilce of where they intend to go, what they want to do, and how long they expect to be there. The police have then shown up in force to KEEP ORDER - directing traffic, etc. It's been a little inconvenient for some drivers and pedestrians, but nothing more.

Who would ever have expected such restraint from Philly cops?!

 

From what I've seen at TV, demostrants were throwing rocks and other hard objects, and IMHO they got what they deserved.

 

The woman with a drum deserved that because she was with them, right?

Personally I would resist and sue the police and individual policemen if possible under local law for not only damages but plainly assault. Apart from that unlawful imprisonment. Loss of trust in the state could be in order... Well, a nice bunch of law suits.

 

Sounds pretty horrible. Here in Canada, things got pretty heated in Calgary. I believe some punches were thrown. I have no problem with peaceful protesters, but they have no right to break the law. They sometimes do, and then cry foul when punished for it. Videos often don't show the whole story. Cops can get out of line, no question, but I would need to get the WHOLE story before condemning the cops.

 

The thing is that cops believe that protesters are there just to make trouble. While some are, most just want things to be better. If one person is in the wrong place at the wrong time, they could get beaten. There is nothing a protester could do to a cop in Riot Gear that deserves a beating. What laws are they breaking, BTW? Is voicing you opinion against the law?

 

Please, beating by the police is not a punishment. Punishment is when the court sentences you or a lesser organ fines you if applicable under the local law.

 

The difficulties police have in the face of an angry mob are substantial though. Although I appreciate the specific point you make and the isolated incident, I think to talk about general police brutality etc is taking this out of the context of the situation in which it happened.

Here is a link to an English language version of events in one of Norway's biggest daily newspapers. Aftenposten Please note that this was the first story I could find, and that it does not mention the case you raised, but rather deals with the events that transpired as a whole. There are further English language links on the page. [Edit] The picture series is quite good. [edit]

 

I'm not an anarchist and am not picking at general police brutality. I'm talking about this specific case. People expressing their opinions are not mob, simply as it is. What I saw was policemen using techniques of inflicting extra pain on demonstrators pressed face down to the ground, including women. What's more, a women was specifically shown who had done nothing except scanding the slogans and playing the drum. If this annoyed the policemen (as would probably annoy most people in their shoes) that was their own problem only. They have about the same right as you or I to hit a person because he or she annoys them and that is no right at all. Besides, that was plainly a revenge and realeasing aggression accumulated in them. Nobody of such a psychical build should be given weapons or placed in defence of anything.

 

Chevalier, as I said, videos can be cut and edited. Now, there is a good chance that she was being abused, no question, I just want to bring up the possibility that she was engaged in some sort of illegal activity (trespassing, graffiti writing, etc) and when asked to stop, refused. Now, if you are breaking a law, and you are told to stop, and you go ahead anyway, then expect the police to use force.

And as for physique, WTF? Are you suggesting we only hire skrawny people for the police force?

I guess I have a sore spot when it comes to cops -- one of my good friends is a cop, and my students are always talking about how the police are out of line -- the same way they say we teachers are out of line for minor acts of discipline. The vast majority of the time, it's the little criminals who are to blame, not the cops. I don't think most cops want to risk their career by doing anything inappropriately violent. But they have to enforce the law somehow, and when reason and politeness don't work, well, they have to do something else.

 

It's never necessary for a few constantly trained guys to press a woman face down to the ground. Even if so, are you telling me that additional beating is justifiable? Or if one is not resisting is this just a prophilactic cure for him not to try that in future, just in case...? Normally I try to defend the police myself too, but well, I've seen that. Tapes can be edited, but this one was only shown without any comments etc so that the issue dies of negligence.

 

I'd have to see the tape, of course, and like I said, police brutality is a possibility. I've seen lots of demonstrations, and never any violence. The police stand and watch the protesters, and everything is dandy. So when the violence starts, I tend to think it's the protesters, trying to get more airtime by provoking the police into something.

 

Well, it depends. If the demonstrators are armed somehow, they could likely try to provoke the police. Sometimes unarmed people resist when police tries to move them from the place. But provocation is no excuse for beating. For action itself sometimes yes - if they are dangerous to order in a part of the city, but never for beating. As no citizen has the right to beat up another one who doesn't meet his expectations, neither have policemen. They are to use physical force when a criminal caught red-handed resists, would likely resist (then only measures of prevention), is dangerous to them or other people or important property. That's all. And in a democratic country they have never been and will never be authorised to hit people as they see fit.

I also repeat that if a man is disarmed, lying face down on the street etc there's no need to kick or hit him. That's a criminal activity and should be prosecuted as law prescribes.

 

And that's exactly what the policemen did! Do you seriously think have policemen that beat up people for fun? And if the person does not want to be disarmed, knocked to the ground and beaten up, well then that person should stay at home and stay away from violent and criminal protests!

 

It has been my experience that whenever a large crowd gathers, whether to protest or throw a party or what have you, there is always a problem with the fringe element stirring up trouble - I've seen it happen all too often at my uni. That woman may have very well done something to provoke the police (and that was conveniently left off the tape.)

 

Well, if one is lying face down and thus can't literally do anything, how do you justify beating him/her, please?