Paladin of Ilmater

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My Aasimar Paladin of Ilmater is now Pal2/Painbearer 4.

Should I add another paladin level, or go for cleric levels from this point on? Is there any major benefit to addiing paladin lvls? My char has 18 CHA, so is good at saves and turning undead. Lvl 3 paladins can turn undead too, how does it stack with cleric turning? Kinda confused here!

Thanks for your helps!

 

Not sure how turning undead levels stack, but I suspect that you're probably better off taking cleric levels from now on. (At least until you get to 20 levels of cleric, if you go on into HOF.)

 

You should have 2 Turn Undeads - one for the cleric and one for the paladin (they don't stack).

 

So I do not need paladin levels right now, higher level cleric spells are more important IMHO.

Thanks for clarifying turn undead thingie. It is of no use then to add paladin levels, interms of turning undead, right?

But lay on hands and smite evil abilities depend on your level, I may raise paladin levels in the far future when the cleric hits lvl 15 or so. Bonus BAB is nice too!

 

Silverstar, if by chance, you happen to play on into HOF, there's little point in taking any more than 20 levels in cleric. So at that point, you could take pally levels to your heart's content.

I suppose that the decision as to the exact mix of levels for your pally/cleric may be a bit of a roleplaying and role decision. Exactly what role is this character playing in your party? Is he the primary/only cleric in your party? If so, I'd tend to think that you'd want to get as may cleric levels as possible. OTOH, if you have another cleric in the party, then perhaps you could go for a different mix with more pally levels.

Given the overall comparison between the two classes, I suppose that it comes down to what you and your party wants and/or needs ... more fighting ability, HP, and pally special abilities or improved divine spellcasting.

 

Well, I have a wild elven druid, a real nice guy who will stay single classed for the time. But you know, druids tend to suck as healers, they learn big healing spells 1 lvl later than cleric. But clerics have so many good spells as well, party buffs, hold person, and evil touch spells. I have Tal Rasha's Tactics4IWD2 mod, so the deadly touch spells of clerics (Slay Living, Harm, Destruction!) are now very useful and I want to try them out ASAP!

As for roleplaying, this Paladin/Cleric character is the primary protector of my team's fragile spell casters, my evoker and druid. He prefers to stay at the back, deal with enemies who breach my monk, ranger/rogue, and bard.

My monk (deep gnome with 20 DEX and WIS) has awesome AC, he tanks, stuns people etc.

Ranger1/rogue5 (tiefling) will primarily take rogue levels, I find sneak attack devastating and so much fun!

My bard (half elf) is also quite capable of tanking and delaying enemies via spamming Mirror Image and Blink spell!

My druid has 20 DEX, plus he is wild elf, so he is very good at using bows from the back, and casting spells when needed.

My evoker (pure human), on the other hand, does not have that much DEX (12) or BAB (being single classed) BUT he now enjoys using Melf's Minute Meteors, with them he is the fastest (5 attacks per round), most accurate (+5 to hit!) and deadly (fire damage, he likes it, wiill get Spirit of Flame soon!) ranged attacker in the party. And do not forget his fireballs, my monk and ranger/rogue evades them, bard just uses Mirror Image while singing Tymora's Melody to bolster the reflex saves of my stalwart tanks, and most of the time all enemies get crisped, without a scratch to my tanks! Just love it!

So, what do you reccomend? Are my tanks enough? Hmm?

 

Well, you do seem to be lacking in traditional tanking power. But if you can make that group work, go for it. It's certainly a very eclectic combo.

 

Even the second paladin level is too much from the powergaming point of view, the earlier you gain access to the ultra powerful cleric spells the easier the game will become.
For a skilled player like you the game would surely be more challenging and interesting without a high level cleric but if you want to try out "destruction" as soon as possible you have to take at least 13 cleric levels.

For your other party members I recommend keeping them pure, mix-in combos would be more powerful but bad for the roleplaying fun you obviously have.
I'm sure the game won't get too difficult for you.

 

It is true, I am kinda bored of traditional tanks, 20 STR half-orcs or 20 CON dwarven barbarians are boring and flavourless after some time.

Now, a mysterious monk, a nimble and opportunist ranger/rogue, or a willy, spell-spammer bard on the other hand, are WAY cooler!

Yes, I will take cleric levels from now on, that 2 lvl of paladin was needed for aura of courage, right? Or am I wrong?

I said I have Tal Rasha's Tactics4IWD2 mod, and the improved battles are so much fun so far! The bridge battle was really hard, I had to reload a few times till I get the perfect strategy, but it was doable with this party. I also was able to finish Undead Targos with only one reload. I like my new party! Really!

My party members are also 1 lvl higher than what they should be, or I think so. My evoker and druid have already hit lvl 7 when I was about to enter the final room of goblin fortress to challenge Guthma. Must be due to Tal Rasha's wonderful mod, anyway, I like it!

 

Silverstar, have you ever considered playing a finesse, DEX-based fighter, instead of the traditional max STR, 2H weapon wielding, plate-wearing fighter?

The concept sounds appealing, but there aren't all that many good "light weapons"/small blades in the game, particularly ones that aren't aimed towards roges. Don't get me wrong. There are a few really good ones, but not as wide a variety as in other types.

Obviously, the downside of a finesse fighter would be that they'd be limited in the damage they can produce, since they're effectively limited to small blades, if they want to use their DEX for their AB, and without all that much STR, they won't be adding as large a STR bonus to each hit and won't be using 2H weapons with their larger damage potential and their 1.5 times STR bonus.

Playing a finesse fighter would really be a roleplaying decision, but it might be an interesting change of pace.

 

^I thought about that. Really. I was planning to make my ranger1/rogue such a character, then I read in the boards, that for best sneak attack damage, you should go for high STR! Plus, I find twelve paces spear extremely useful for sneak attacks, it has a wonderful range. With high STR even more enhanced by Bull's strength spell, the spear deals massive damage from a safe distance:add the sneak attack, and I end up killing orc shamans/goblin sorcerers in one hit! Serves them right!

With little micromanagement, my char can sneak attack from the back of a tough enemy, with little fear of retribution.

When I equip a small blade though, its range is so limited, my poor character needs to get closer to the back of the enemy, at which point it turns back to attack, foiling the chance for a sneak attack and possibly hurting my character as well!

I get the ranger lvl for martial weapon skills, but also for the free two weapon and ambidexterity feats, if I plan to dual-wield in the faaar future.

 

Silverstar, there's no doubt that under any circumstance, a high STR character will produce more damage than a lower one.

Oh, and the 12 Paces (HOF) spear is one hell of a great sneak attacking weapon. With its great range, you can sneak behind an enemy melee wall and backstab one enemy after another and create great havoc! What fun!

BTW, it's hard to think of a Rogue X/Ranger 1 as a real ranger-rogue. It's more like a rogue who went to a weekend seminar on rangering to pick up a couple of nice skills.

However, if you're gonna take only 1 level of a class to MC with a nearly pure rogue, ranger is a far better choice than fighter, since you get all of the benefit up front. OTOH, if you want a rogue/ftr, you really need to take at least 4 levels of ftr to get the full benefit of the fighter levels. Not to diss the rogue/fighter MC, it's just a matter of which direction you want to go. Both work just fine in their own way.

Anyways, like I said, the decision to play a finesse tank is very much of a roleplaying one, since it requires a conscious decision to weaken the character's damage potential. I suppose that one might consider it a weakness in the DnD or 3e system, although I'm not certain about that.

 

Oops, sorry Crucic, what was the name of 12 pace's normal-game equivelant? It is still nice enough weapon for now. Range is important for sneak attacks! (but when an enemy is helpless:held, stunned, asleep etc. you get free sneak attacks! Coolness!)

I like the idea of 'a rogue who went to a weekend seminar on rangering to pick up a couple of nice skills.' Those skills are nice, indeed:tons of martial weapon feats, +1 BAB, +2 fortitude saves, 4 more extra HP, two weapon fighting and ambidexterity feats (sorta) etc. All for one level, well I will lose maybe one 1d6 of sneak attack damage, but it is well worth it, I think.

Yes, I do not plan to put more ranger levels, this char will lvl up in roguehood from now on, for massive sneak attack dmg! I look forward to see when it says 'Sneak attack for 40+' dmg...it is cool!

Ranger benefits far more than a fighter lvl when you only plan to add one level, right?

Thanks for your ideas so far!

 

Silverstar, the normal mode version is Nine Paces. It doesn't have quite the reach of Twelve Paces. IIRC, the 9 Paces spear has a range of 3, while the 12 Paces spear has a range of 5. (Normal spears and halberds have a range of 2.)

When you're only looking to take 1 level, one ranger level is vastly better than 1 fighter level. IIRC, the only benefit that 1 fighter level would get is a free feat. But if you intend on doing any 2 weapon fighting, the ranger is effectly getting 2 feats free at creation, i.e. the ambidex and 2 weap fighting feats. And a ranger gets to take some in-class skills that are completely in sync with a rogue, i.e. the stealth feats and search.

A fighter-rogue is much better when you intend to take at least 4 fighter levels, perhaps even going 50/50.


And yes, massive sneak attack damage is way cool. It may not be as deadly as 2e backstabbing, but it's much easier to execute. And a good sneak attacker can attack multiple targets in succession. Just sneak behind an enemy's melee wall and attack one tank right after another, as long as you don't have to run away. A sneak attacker can wreak terrible damage on an unsuspecting enemy.


BTW, if I'm not doing sneak attacks, I've found that 12 paces is a great spear for a rogue or cleric to use, if they don't want to be in the front lines with my own tanks. Just stand behind my tanks and stab away.