Other Systems

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This may or may not go here. I'm looking for free online realistic systems. D&D is too unrealistic for my purposes
So, any idea's?

[ February 21, 2003, 14:28: Message edited by: Aikanaro ]

 

The other d20 systems might fit your liking, like d20 Modern or d20 Star Wars, although I can't say if they're more or less realistic than D&D. Check the Wizards website for the SRDs.

Frankly, I don't see what's wrong with D&D being unrealistic. In a world of giant fire-breathing dragons and talking swords, is it so hard to believe that concepts like hit points and saving throws can apply to a fantasy world?

 

The concept of hitpoints is amazingly unrealistic and stupid. Lets say we tie a wizard and a warrior to a rock and get a dragon to breathe on them. The wizard is turned into a pile of ashes while the fighter shrugs it off and gets a few burn marks. And why is it that a cleric can heal a peasant so much more effectivly than a powerful warrior. Sure, AD&D is nice and all but is about as unrealistic as it gets

 

Well, the game depends on the DM, I think they have rule with firearms in the DM guide, or you can play Shadowrun...

 

This brings me to my next point, is anyone here interested in playing non D&D games? Not just vaguely knowing what they are

 

Which brings us to 3rd Edition. Coup de Grace, anyone?

Anyways, HP is not necessarily "meat on the bones". It also represents a character's ability to make their injuries less nastier, to turn back just in the nick of time to turn that potentially fatal battleaxe blow into a glancing wound.

You have a good point with the second example with healing, though.

I recommend you go to the 3rdedition Boards (I remember that you don't play 3E, but anyways) and search for topics concerning HP and the like. You're bound to find some good explanations.

If you come up or find a system that is more realistic and still provides a simple game balance, I'd love to see it.

 

It would be interesting to see someone make an injury less nasty when tied to a rock.
Pathwanderer is very realistic and, though I havn't actualy tested it out yet, looks like it may work well in practise. Its rather confusing when you first read it through though, but thinking on it for a bit will let you see through its confusing exterior.

[ February 23, 2003, 09:44: Message edited by: Aikanaro ]

 

HP also represents a characters ability to withstand the damage as well. For instance, my friend who is a black-belt in Tae Kwon Do can punch to the face and keep on going (seen it happen). Me, one punch and I'm down. Am I a wimp (just like the 'typical' wizard)? Yes I am. My bud, he has trained himself to take the pain and deal with it and go on (just like a 'typical' fighter).

 

Try Steve Jackson Games. They do GURPS and Car Wars amoung others.

 

I still fail to see someone somehow, anyhow, been able to withstand more damage when tied to a rock with a dragon breathing on them. Someone taking less damage with a punch, fair enough, someone surviving thousands of degrees been blasted at them, I think not.

 

I think it's fair to say that if a Great Red Wyrm breathed on both your average well-trained martial artist and your average teenager, they would both die (the breath weapon deals 24d10 damage in 3E, mind you). But a level 20 Paladin could probably take the breath and still survive.

You may think of this as irrational. But chances are you've never met a level 20 character. Especially not one from the D&D world.

[ February 24, 2003, 23:21: Message edited by: C'Jakob ]

 

A person is a person! Even Joan of Arc died when set on fire. Normal non magical fire mind you. I think that she might come close to a level 20 paladin. So beat that one

 

A level 20 person (in the D&D world, not the real world) is likely to survive tremendous damage (assuming he/she's of a Fighter-related class). And at best, Joan of Arc was maybe a level 9 or so warrior. She did no fighting, but just waved a flag around in battle. And she probably wasn't able to sense the presence of evil and lay on hands.

Besides, burning a person at the stake is a relatively slow execution. However, we can't say that level 20 characters die as quickly as normal people, because they live in the D&D realm and thus are capable of heroic things, like surviving a big fall or a Dragon's bite. The whole point is that they exist in a fantasy game, where such things are possible.

So there.

 

OK, so I was hoping you wouldn't pick up on my obvious screw up on the Joan of Arc level thing but hey, **** happens.
Even though this is fantasy doesn't mean that it shouldn't be based on reality. And you use the words 'D&D world' which pretty much proves my point. The D&D world is that unrealistic that such things can happen. People can still be heroic without been unrealistic and immortal. Been a realy good swordsman and been slightly favoured by a god doesn't mean that you can ignore the laws of whatever science is approriate in this situation.

So there

 

I'm not familiar with 3E rules, but I am a 2E buff. They had a series called players option that dealt with some of the issues you mentioned. There were critical hit tables, etc. of course, as someone mentioned, a good DM will rule logically -- I remember once while playing TSR's "Top Secret" I had my gun to the head of a foreign spy. The spy was tied up. He aggravated me, so I pulled the trigger. My idiot DM (called an Administrator in this game) rolls the dice and says "you hit him in the foot!" What a moron.

Anyhow, hit points are necessary for some sort of calculation of damage, but common sense should prevail.

 

There is no reason fantasy should be based upon reality. If you are running a game where people spontaeneously combust, the king is an infant, and where Priests all die within one year of completion of training, then it still doesn't have to matter. It's fantasy. The whole point is that there is the supernatural, the magical, the ideal.

So why aren't the D&D settings more unlike Earth? It doesn't have to be, but I suspect it is because you want some sort of connection with our reality, some sort of things you can relate to. A person would be more comfortable, I imagine, in a D&D setting where the laws of physics apply, as opposed to one where they don't.

I agree that a swordsman is still a swordsman. But the difference between a level 1 (fantasy) fighter and a level 11 (fantasy) warrior is that the latter one is one hell of a lot tougher, accurate, experienced, and so forth.

Being favored by a god, however, or knowing magic, or having some sort of power or abliity we as non-D&D people are unable to understand, is a different matter. A guy favored by some god might be able to do powerful things that contradict our laws of science. Why? You don't need a why. It's fantasy.

 

Your throwing fantasy all into one basket. You can have realistic high fantasy. If people want to randomly explode in you world thats fine, I would just like it better if there was a reasonable explanation for it. If people want to be able to survive a dragons breathe while strapped to a rock, fine, though a reason might be nice. And as to contradicting the laws of science, thats cool in a world that does that (The Discworld) but in FR the laws of science seem to have been applied in a general kind of way. And take Robin Hobbs' world for example, it works well within the the laws of intelligence. Magic should be the only way to defy such laws as that is the whole point of it.
Also, the leveling system is unrealistic anyway. A mage throws a dart from the back of the party to strike an orc and kill it and gain experiance from it. But then when they gain a level they suddenly think, 'hey, I can cast more spells now' but they can't get better at using the dart they threw. (I'm not sure about this in 3E but its the case in 2E)

[ February 27, 2003, 12:12: Message edited by: Aikanaro ]

 

I don't think D&D is designed to be realistic. But if it were you'd probably get a lot of frustrated players. The system is generally combat oriented and charcters would be dropping like flies if D&D was a realistic high fantasy. Also the DM can always say that a level 20 paladin tied to a rock and takes the breath of a red dragon automatically dies.

I've haven't played PnP RPGs for some time now but my brother is very active. I've seen the stuff he's playing. There are a LOT of systems out there. Some even don't have hit points or levels. They're purely role playing. They even have what they call 'home brews' which as the phrase implies is created by the GM. It can be a mix of rules you like from different RPGs or a totally new system.

[ February 27, 2003, 22:18: Message edited by: Charlie ]

 

I am describing fantasy in general. It's a good idea to rationalize things a fantasy world, of course. Laws of cause and effect apply. This is a must in a reasonable fantasy setting. In a fantasy game, you want to have a good experience, and keep game balance, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Levelling means that you are more confident amd skilled in stuff. It's not sudden. It happens slowly. When you reach X XP, those things you have been trying to learn, how to throw a dagger, how to become more devoted to Helm, etc. become active.

(In 3E, the character's skill with the dart might improve depending on his level.)

Let's take this example:

Mage: "Wow, so much magical stuff. Can't wrap my head around it. But I better start studying so I can understand this stuff in the future. Maybe someday I will be like Elminster!"

*Mage goes travelling; Orc attacks him*

Mage: "Gah!"

*Mage throws dart, rolls a 20, kills the Orc*

Mage: "Whoa... I can kill an Orc. Woohoo! Woohoo! Woohoo! Wow, if I can kill an Orc, surely I can wrap my head around that scroll of Fireball!"

*Mage becomes more confident, gains another rank in Spellcraft (in 3E, anyhow) and that night he manages to copy the spell Fireball into his book*

Some DMs just freeform levelling. They just decide when it is appropriate for someone to level up. It's a good idea, but this can get out of hand. Especially when keeping track of things that deduct XP, such as crafting items (in 3E) or doing certain spells (perhaps only in 3E). The idea of freeforming stuff is very common; being bound by every letter of the rules is not a good idea. The group should make decisions about what rules ought to be changed to suit their campaign.

(Actually, Charlie, I usually hear the term "homebrew" in a setting. The only context in which I have heard it is where a DM just makes a world, instead of using a published one like FR or Greyhawk. Hence the term.)

[ February 27, 2003, 22:40: Message edited by: C'Jakob ]

 

Oh grr, it seems that you have a point on that one. I myself prefer the exp buy system. You gain fractions of exp points to make up a whole one each time you use that skill in a useful way and then it it added to your characters skill in that area.
Your example isn't wholy foolproof though. Lets say someone is playing a character with the lowest self esteem in the world who is never inspired by anything. You example doesn't work then.