Opinions on 3rd Ed.

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I have read many posts with people saying that they really like the 3rd edition rules. I was curious to know people's reasoning?

I myself am not all that impressed with it and my reasoning is I think the makers are trying to go too mainstream. For example, the elimination of many class/race restrictions. The reason I didn't like that idea was because it seems more logical and "real-life" like to have certain advantages/disadvantages with certain classes and particularily races. Just wondering if anyone can convert my worship to the new rules .

And please, only intelligent replies.

 

AhahahahahHAHAHAHA! Kill! Maim! Hack! Bill Clinton! Slash! Kill! Wait one moment...I
it was intelligent not unintelligent he said... I think 3rd edition is great and less hack and slash-like. I've always wanted to play a grey elven mage/cleric. Restrictions always gave races characther but I just think that the races became TOO
restricted. Like the warhammer 40K version where the rules said that orks HAD to be of
a certain clan and color scheme. I have not
got it yet but I hope they mention something like what is typical/not typical for the race so races can have characther instead of
being short or pointy-eared humans. I have heard that elves now are more alien. Is that true?

 

I've been playing 3rd Ed. with my RP group for about 5 months and I think it's great. I will always have a special place in my heart for 2nd ed. I started playing with 1st ed. and things were going to hell when 2nd ed. came out and saved D&D. Here what I like about 3rd ed.

- They fixed the multi/dual class system
- Good new classes & race
- more balance between the classes
- standardized XP for the party (now the party mage is not 2 level behind the thief)
- Standardized saving throws
- Mages can wear armor at a price (this was always a wear point)
- Improvement in skills (in 2nd ed. you could ride horses for 20 years and never get any better at it unless your stats changed)
- Cleric have up to 9th level spells
- Standardized roll success (no more "is rolling over or under a success?")
- Feats help to 'talior' characters
- Fighters are cool again
- Elven Paladin (why not?)

Well those are just some quick thoughts. I'd be happy to talk about it more. I hope that helps.

 

I agree with Eternal Paladin to a degree: I was pretty let down by 3E rules. Some changes were overdue - racial/class/multiclass restrictions were based on stereotypes that just made no sense (Gnomes could be Illusionists but not Wizards; Elves could be Rangers but not Druids; Dwarves could be Fighters and Clerics but not Paladins), and saving throws being based on the relevant ability makes perfect sense (dodging a Fireball should be based on your agility and not your class). There are a lot of minor changes that are for the better, from ability increases every four levels to 8th and 9th level Divine spells to more flexible alignments for Druids.

But I was pretty disappointed otherwise. A lot of what was added - such as Feats (yawn), Prestige Classes, Difficulty Classes, the official pantheon of standard gods - serves as a poor replacement for the ton of information that was removed from the game - kits, numerous spells, distinct racial subtypes, ability score subdivisions (Wisdom = Insight + Willpower), etc. The makers of 3E have turned back the clock on the game about 15 years, wiping out all the innovation and information that has been released over the years and asking players to pretend they never happened ("Look into my eyes: Chromatic Orb never existed! Aganazzar's Scorcher was just a dream! You are getting sleepy: Rangers don't need kits, which never existed, by the way. Shadow Mage? Chronomancer? Archer? Never heard of them. When you wake up, you will not remember 2E!") Necromancers used to have a whole Handbook of information; now they are lucky to get a single sentence in 3E. The game has been repainted in big, broad, bland strokes and so much of the color and detail has been erased. I guess it makes it simpler for new players, but for older players, it's like going from Chess to Checkers in a way. A step back.

I understand the "Swords and Fists" book for Fighters and Monks (released this month) is supposed to address the blistering-lack-of-kits issue - which is the major sticking point for me with 3E - by showing you what combination of skills and (yawn) feats you can choose to get you closest to what was previously available via kits, but it is not going to fix the problem. Kits should be reintroduced as a way to have a unique variation on an existing class with restrictions and special abilities NOT AVAILABLE TO OTHER CLASSES.

As for new classes/races, well, the Sorcerer is the only real new aspect - Barbarians, Monks, and Half-Orcs have been part of D&D rules in the past, although they have been improved for 3E - but the Sorcerer is simply a Wizard with one minor change (how they cast spells), not much of a new class at all. In 2E Rules, the Sorcerer would simply be a kit for the Wizard, not a new class. I was disappointed they didn't come up with better new classes and races - Mystics, Shamans, Centaur PCs, Half-Goblins or something, new types of Elf, Tieflings, etc. So much information has been released since 2E came out that they could have picked a few races or classes and incorporate them into the official rules. I think they missed a major opportunity to add some fresh air to the game.

And on a purely visual level, the new books look cluttered and unattractive (brown cover, yellow pages - not the most attractive combination), and the illustrations (except in those in Monster Manual) are pretty weak. For the Elf illustration in PH, if I remember correctly, they just have three or four pencil sketches of elf eyes. Ooookaaay.

Whatever.

But I haven't actually played the game yet. So if anyone in the L.A. area is currently running a campaign and is looking to add a new player, let me know.

[This message has been edited by Neverworlder (edited January 02, 2001).]

 

I agree. I think it sucks to remove so much.
It should have been new edition not a new game. It feels weird to say "devil" after so long...

 

Very good points made. I find myself agreeing with you Neverworlder, but I must admit, I have barely played 3rd. edition P&P.

That was one of the points I did not mention. To reiterate what Neverworlder said, I am dissappointed with the utter dismissal of all the detail of 2nd edition.

I was also unhappy with how they changed some things in the monster manual. ie like making certain monsters weaker than what they used to be, making others more powerful. I just wish they would make up their minds.

Also going along with what Never said, I found it funny that all the drawings of the different races are so hollywood. For example, dwarves look incredibly strong a mascular, while always remember them being strong, but also loving Ale and ususally not being able to see their feat because of their bellys. Elves do also look more alien like also.

But, I guess that is why I play D&D with people who I know. Because if there is something we do not like (as was with 2nd, and will be with 3rd) we change it. We keep the rules we like and change those we do not to more fit our style of play.

 

I think that is the bottum line. If there is a rule you don't like, don't use it. The DM can do what ever he wants and change any rule as long as he lets the players know.
As far as the art in the books I have to agree. I liked the 2nd ed. books a lot better. Better pictures and a better setup. But as far as gameplay goes I think the good things about 3rd ed. out weigh the bad. It has problems, no system is perfect but its still not bad. Just combine the good things from 2nd & 3rd ed. together and get the best of both worlds.

As for getting rid of a lot of detail just remember that when the 2nd ed. PHB came out all the sourcebooks had not been printed yet. They will print more and more 3rd ed. source material, how do you think they plan to make money?

 

Yeah, I know. Just because 3E dropped so much doesn't mean I will. The whole game is of course structured to be tweaked (although less so in 3E). But it's just a colossal pain in the ass.