Offensive mages/sorcerers?

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Is it me or is the offensive element of arcane spellcasters just... non existent?

This is because the time between casting is too long and casting spells themselves is too long(the battle usually ends for me when i get to cast a second time). Most spells that could deal out damage must be shot before the party engages in to combat. However, the powerful enemies would be immune or barely hurt by a one fireball anyway. And the weaker enemies could be just taken out by fighters.

I cant see the point of sorcerers at all. In other D&D games they are the nukers(IWD2). In BG all they have are the friendly hurting area spells that take too long to cast.

Those 2nd D&D rules or whatever really suck.

 

I somewhat agree with Mercury Star. The biggest power that wizards have in BG2 is the ability to negate the cheating superpowers that the enemy wizards have by casting endless sequences of Breach, Pierce Magic, Ruby Ray of Reversal, etc etc.

 

Yes, it is just you. Though BG2 screws up arcane casters, there are still plenty of ways to make them effective. Fireballs and other area spells are not the end-all of magedom. There are also single-target spells, debilitating spells, buffing spells, and likely another category or two I forgot. I suggest you try playing with more than one spell per level, and see how that works for you.

Quite a leap in your logic, there. One, 2e rules are not properly implemented in BG2. And two, even BG2's nerfed rules do not really suck; they kinda suck, but not really suck. Now if you cannot wrap your brain around them enough to make it work for you, that is your problem, not the game's, and I won't have you bashing a system you do not understand (or one you haven't even experienced, for that matter ).

 

I can implent the arcane spellcasters. The problem is that their role is weakened.

 

I'd say it's not so much that their role is weakened as different. In BG2 there are no "nukers", as you put it; noone achieves the ungodly power you see in the no-limits 3e-based ruleset of IWD2. If you don't like it...then play IWD2 or ToEE or NWN instead.

 

I disagree, though (and I'm in no way a fan of Mages, I prefer tanks). Give me a Sorcerer with the Rober of Vecna, and you have that firepower. One skulltrap (or horrid wilting later on) and many fights are over before they begin.

 

Try taking a party without any good fighters.

 

I wrote a long diatribe debating this issue (in favor of the Mages) but deleted it all because of this one sentence:

A Sorcerer can solo SOA.

Gimme a Sorc with a Thief and a Priest and I'll toast 'em all easily.

Summoning and Illusion come to mind.

[ May 04, 2006, 09:43: Message edited by: Isshy ]

 

Isshy, i dont want to powergame. Therefore i will not multiclass my sorcerer in to a priest and a thief.

Sure, the later spells like horrid wilting are pretty powerful. However, most others are magic resistent to it. It was useless against drow, for example.

What bugs the most is the weakness of all of the offensive spells. Everything does so little damage its almost useless.

Sure arcanists are good at buffing and enchanting enemies, but i want to be a nuker. Like sorcerers are intended to be.

 

Ah, for Pete's sake... Whatever happened to adapting your tactics to the enemies you fight? Drow are highly magic resistant. What is the point in wasting your spells on them? That's why summons and your party fighters are for.


Regarding low level spells, you start BG2 at level 8 and should get to level 9 pretty quick. You'll have access to level 4 spells, including the Minor Sequencer, which allows you to combine two level 1 or 2 spells. Two Magic Missiles (at caster level 9) can cause 20-50 points of damage to a single enemy, if my math is correct. That's not too bad for a low level spell that is cast instantly.

One lowly Chromatic Orb can Petrify or Kill your opponent with one shot, depending on your level.

A bouncing Lightning Bolt can make an incredible amount of damage to a large number of enemies, if aimed properly, because it keeps hitting until it expires. Try using it in small rooms full of enemies. And, IIRC, many dragons are susceptible to electrical damage, so your Lightning Bolts and Chain Lightning will give you an edge (provided that you lower their MR first).

Flame arrow makes a potential 60 points of damage when you reach level 10, I think.

Skull Trap is a killer, and it keeps growing in power as you do.

Melf's Minute Meteors can cause a good amount of damage (depending on your aim).

Cloudkill can instantly kill a good number of enemies, like some Trolls and Umber Hulks, and you should already have it by the time you first leave Athkatla.

[ May 04, 2006, 12:01: Message edited by: Colthrun ]

 

Isshy said:

Ya know, a F/T protagonist, Kelsey and Anomen does make a pretty effective party... I might have to try this powerhouse out sometime!


Mercury Star said:

You couldn't do it anyway.

 

So you want a Mage that isn't a powergamer and yet is a powergamer? I don't get it.

I never said anything about going multiclass. There is no multiclass Sorc anyway...it's impossible. I could be wrong but it sounds to me like you don't know this game very well. A Sorcerer is one of the most powerful characters you can make but you have to know how to play them.

 

just get your Mage/Sorc loaded up on stone skins and sunfire (one of the cheapest spells to grace an RPG, at least with the Wail of the Banshee your saving throw can negate everything).

I don't think the damn spell even transfers to 3e or 3.5 (cuz I've been looking for it).

Improved Invisibility + Stoneskin + Sunfire, nearly every problem in the game can be dealt with through that combination (some monsters may need Lower Resistance prep work, which may require several rings of Invisiblity).

Imprisonment followed by many castings of skull trap, delayed fireball and glyphs of warding which is in turn followed by freedom also works absolute wonders.

 

Wizards are only weakened because damage spells have to be dropped on a moving target. If the combat in BG2 were turn based, playing a "nuker" wouldn't be a problem. The problem, in this case, is the engine. Not the ruleset. Just to irritate Felinoid, I do feel compelled to mention that I still think 2e sucks.

 

2e does not suck!

I nuke all my enemies with my bard. And he is not even a full time mage, or powerhorse sorcerer, yet he has the highest kill rate in the party thanks to his spells.

You seriously need to change your playing style. Launching fireballs and Skulltraps into the fray where your party is meleeing, is plain stupid. UNLESS your party is absolutely immune and protected from it. Why don't you cast protection from fire on your party (cheap level 3 cleric spell), or have fire resistant gear/potion/scroll. Then let everybody keep blasting fireballs into melee, enemies will melt down fast unless they are protected too. (which is rare in unmodded game)

As for drows. They have MR. But there are spells which ignore MR. Simply blast away 2-3 Sunfires (level 5 mage, evocation) and they are history. Look at a thread in ToB forum for spells which ignore MR.

If you know a group of enemies is somewhere, hurl a few Web/Grease/Slow spells to make them less mobile. Then send fireballs (10d6 max) icestorms (8d8 damage in 4 rounds) cloudkills, (1d10 damage over a round, may insta-kill some) cone of colds, (20d4+20 max damage, it packs quite a punch)delayed blast fireball (15d6), incendiary clouds (capable of doing massive damage if the enemy is immobile, 20d4 damage PER round), meteor swarms (16d10 damage in four rounds) etc. An added Greater Malison will make sure you do full damage.

Also, there are party friendly damaging spells if you can not manage to do it. Chain Lightning and ABDHW does not hurt members. Put 3 Chain Lightnings in a sequencer and you will have a nasty suprise for your enemies, a shock worth of 30d6 damage! Not to mention fire 3 ABDHWs via Chain Contingency for obscene amount of damage (60d8, few critters can survive such an onslaught). If you are protected, you can launch 6 skulltraps in a round with Sequencer and Triggers. This can do 120d6 damage instantly! If you are protected from magical energy (level 6 mage, abjuration) or have mirror image (level 3 mage, illusion) you can not be damaged.

There are many creative ways of using a mage 'nuker' type. A greater malison plus Finger of Death can guarantee a certain death. (save vs spells at -6 penalty.) Add a simple doom spel for additional -2 penalt, for a total of -8! This combo will kill a dragon instantly %60 of time! (provided MR is dealt with) Dragons are mighty and ancient. You point your finger and the beast is slain. And you daresay mages are weak in 2e!?

 

Hey. I'm prone to area affect spell usage myself and I manage to do it quite fine without killing my party members. There are plenty of tactics to use that make them quite effective even in groups. Multiple spell casters can actually bring a lot of damage down on a group with a couple of quick castings while your fighters take on whatever it is that comes out of the area affect.

 

I think 2e sucks because a wizard is so much more powerful than any other class that it isn't even funny......nuking works fine in 2e. It even works fine in BG2 if you employ the right tactics.

 

Wizards are definitely very powerful in high levels. But in low levels they are terribly weak. Imagine a level 1 mage. He has 4-5 HP, lousy THAC0, AC, and only 1 spell. You cast a magic missile to a goblin for pathetic 1d4+1 damage, which may not even kill a 1 HD creature, and then you are completely useless till you rest; while a fighter can fight as long as he has HP, and he has best HP, AC, and THAC0.

However arch-mages should be really powerful to compensate this weakness and hardships of being a wizard. If the apprentice mage can survive, he can unlock powers beyond wildest dreams. And thus, highest level arch-mages are infamous and feared through all realms. Just look at some fantasy novels, all important mages there are respected anbd feared. (Elminster, Gandalf, etc.) Because they are POWERFUL.

 

In 3e, the classes are balanced at every level. That makes a lot more sense.

 

To you, yes; to everyone, no.

Silverstar painted the picture quite well, of the wizard who is useless at the beginning, but grows in power exponentially. You pay for that extra power later, by being so very easy to kill now. It's the reason why there are so many fighters of all levels, but very few mages who actually manage to stay alive long enough to gain that enormous power.

Having everyone equal and the same speaks to me of lack of imagination, or just plain rampant political correctness. (Well, really it's a necessary step for a system where you can take levels from anywhere, but that's not the point.) It makes it boring, having the choices not so different from each other. Granted, they're significantly different when it comes to tactics, but when the total level is the end-all of power, you might as well be playing Magic and comparing a card's power and toughness to see who wins the fight. "Okay, you're level 14 and I'm level 13. You win."