Now don't you feel sheepish?

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Now that Baghdad has been occupied and the much publicized (where I am at least), statue of Saddam has fallen, the Iraqis both there and here (here being Washington), are partying in the streets. Now, this may be my pro war mentality talking, but doesn't all this jubilation on the part of the oppressed make all you anti-war people feel just a bit in the wrong? A little? Maybe? I mean, the people directly affected seem happy, so what beef does anyone else have?

That said:
*Covers vulnerable regions in preparation for counterattacks*

 

This is not suprising.People have often greeted "liberating" armies with open arms and smiles at first.Its later when the army is still their that things get tricky.

Hopefully we can do a better job here than we did in Afghanastan.This is going to be a real tricky time for the United States.If some how we can realy help Iraq become an independant,self governed nation, it could mean tremendous strides for the nations relations with that region.

We shall see.I hope things go well.

 

The celebrations are what the media shows you, but you should take a look at all pictures of dead children and people who have lost limbs. They are many, and over 2000 civilians are expected to have died during this war. No, I don't feel "slightly wrong" for being anti-war, I feel "slightly disgusted" for being the same race as the agressors.

 

How was it in Bowling for Columbine again? Something about "the president making war on a country whose name we can't spell"? It's Afghanistan.

 

Pyro, i dont think i could agree with you more. Sheepish? I think i will have to take 8 showers and drink detergent to feel dirty, let alone clean. The fact that the US have 'won' doesn't mean that you were in the right when the war was declared. I have a question. If you are so hard against terrorism, how does it feel to be terrorists yourselves? Because you went to war without UN sanction, you have broken the law, and thus have scared MIGHTILY the people in Iraq. What was it, the definition that Bush gave for terrorists? "Those who use fear or terror as a weapon...". If you are fighting terrorists, who will fight you?

Another lovely bush quote, "I will never apologize for the United States of America, I don't care what the facts are.". Guess what Georgey baby, those facts are pretty condemning in themselves.

In answer to your question, no. I dont feel sheepish. I feel damn right indignitive that you took it upon yourselves to liberate a country through the deaths of the citizens. So instead of gloating, cram it and think about the people that are now dead.

 

Baezlebub the war was never about terrorism.
I know they tried to make that connection but it never took.

Foradasthar I would not use spelling and grammer to try to discredit some ones point.

Pryo the media did show the wounded as well no one is saying this was without consequence.I don't think anyone wants to see people killed.

The reality is this is where we are.The war seems to be winding down but does anyone else find it odd that Saddam and company seemed to just vanish like Ghosts?

 

The war was never about terrorism - they couldn't make it stick. Well yes, but the fact they tried to make it stick in the first place is the point. Another one they tried was that Iraq was a massive threat to world peace because of their awesome arsenal. I guess that will be the 2 scud missiles and the 20 or so 1955 vintage tanks then. The other one that it was never about, of course was the oil, which just happened to be the first objective for the 'Allies.' (Before anyone re-starts the argument about access to oil, I know that isn't the issue, but don't think no one was worried about controlling the price of oil). The humanitarian angle was only really pushed as a reason when they realised that most of the world where against using violence to resolve the situation. The right wingers then tried to take the moral high ground by suggesting that being anti-war was in some bizarre way being pro-Sadam

Anyway, it is still too early to say that the scenes of welcome on the telly justify anything. We will have to see how things pan out to see if the majority are still happy about outside interference in the longer term (they didn't seem so happy to be invaded (oh sorry I guess I am expected to say liberated) in the southern cities). It is also not over yet and the Kurdish situation is far from resolved.

So do I feel better about the war now? Well I'm glad it hasn't been much much worse but I'm far from happy that lots of innocent men, women and children have been killed or injured not to mention the losses of both sides brave fighting forces. I'm also worried about the long-term political implications of America (and shamefully this travesty of a democracy that I live in) proving that it has no regard for international law (who polices the police?, since when has vengeance been the same as justice? etc). I also still think that the best way to help people in need is to drop food, support, help, aid, education and better alternatives rather than exploding lumps of metal.

 

Slappy, you overlook that the WMDs that aren't to be found have probably been proliferated and hidden - supposedly in Syria and Iran? The threat isn't over!

Just as with Bin Laden alive WNDs not found are much better as they allow to justify further actions without great effort. No one will seriously deny that an anthrax or VX warhead is dangerous. If it exists.

And you never know. The greatest thing of all is that you can't find what is not there (and better, you cannot even logically proove that something that isn't there doesn't exist ) so you even might end up having excuses for a whole decade!

 

My question is: Where are the 200,000 dead that the UN predicted in this war?

The verdict is still out on the WMD. However, to try to pin one overriding reason for this war is purely a tactic to discredit it. There was a preponderance of evidence that led to one inescapable conclusion, Saddam Hussein had to go. The only debate worthy of discussion was the manner in which it was to happen. IMO, we tried a decade of diplomacy, and it failed.

Now, the people are celebrating in the streets, and it is jubilation over the end of the their oppression. In the next few days reality will settle in. Thought of things like getting food, medicine, friends and relatives who have died or been injured, and the continued warfare in their nation will settle in. This is actually the most dangerous time. IMO, the coalition must get an interim Iraqi government established, and basic needs must be provided or this is destined to failure.

The Iraqi people have a unique opportunity to make their nation the leaders of the Middle East. There are many pitfalls here, and the US could be one of the biggest. I hope that they are prepared for the task ahead, and I hope that the US helps them help themselves, and that we don't use or usual heavy-handed approach toward establishing the future of Iraq.

 

You believe this war is over; I don't think so and in fact that now begins the real thing. Do you think that in Iraq live only Iraqies; There are 3 different populations (i can't imagine a better description) and these are sunites siites and kurds. These three populations will kill each other for control. And furthermore the Kurds dream only one thing their own nation and guess what they will try to get one way or another.

Do i feel sheepish; No i feel that we just entered a road that has many curves and traps and many will pay this cost with more than money. And one question now that the whole thing is coming to this and the worlds peace and prosperity was "secured" can you tell me if Bush, Afnar and Blur will be brought to justice for dissobeying the UN;
Oh i forgot Bush administration didn't sign the foundation of international criminal law court for war crimes. In fact the Bush administration is trying to convice the rest of the world to sign treaties (bipartite) that exclude the US citizens from the court jurisdiction. And this happened three months before even the first hints of the war. How convienient. The nation that claims to be the champion of legitimacy is the first to undermine this effort to have a court with the power and the will to bring to justice war criminals.
That's how sheepish i feel

 

I only feel sheepish when I try to find out where I am in the morning. It's perfectly true that Saddam was best removed - only the peaceful means hadn't been exhausted. Besides, the actual reasons of US being in Iraq now are far from any relation to Saddam.

 

Winning the war doesn't make it right, and I doubt the few Iraqi I've seen rejoicing on TV represent the mood of an entire population who owes a great deal of pain to the invaders.
Sheepish, no. Afraid it will lead to endless wars and guerillas all around the world, yes.

 

Ralgnar, in very brief: No.

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/1598451.php

Link courtesy of Sprite.

Reminds me of the day after 9/11 when US reporters paid a handful of palestinian youths to burn a US flag, and to cheer a little while making their vicious dance to bring the right shots back home.

 

Ragusa ... don't forget about the other theories out there.

As reported by Front Page

Sorry but the truth is that yesterday was a victory - for Iraq, for America, and for freedom. Thousands of people in Iraq took to the streets to celebrate their liberation as the Baathist regime of Saddam Hussein all but collapsed. The images of cheering Iraqis and the American military cooperating together to topple statues of the dictator were seen around the world, including on Arab media; such images of freedom have not been seen since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union. The vast majority of Americans, those who support our troops and our government, were not surprised - this had been expected from the start. Only the anti-Americans in our midst are unable to explain it; and therefore they must ignore it. The rest of us know better.

 

I don't buy it. Whole thing seems fishy to me and not all that convincing.

If anything, I see this example of proof of propaganda as little more than leftist propaganda itself. This picture could've been taken before the crowds had a chance to grow - it's too fuzzy to tell. Worse case, it's much easier to erase people with photoshop than it is to add them. (that goes for fallen statues, too). And if not, the fact that the crowd was small doesn't mean it was planted. Radio and television is out in Bagdhad and only those in that immediate area would've known what was going on. That was downtown anyway, not a residential area. I'm not surprised there weren't all that many people in that area - if I knew tanks were going to be rolling through and a major battle was 'supposedly' about to take place, I wouldn't have been hanging around either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but journalists from all over the world were staying and filming in that very area as well - many of whom are just itching to catch the US red-handed at staging something that would make them look like heroes. They would've called 'bullsh*t' like crazy if they thought it was fake. And so what if the guy pictured with the Chalibi group is the same as the 2nd picture (which I'm not convinced it is). The reporter who wrote the caption and put the picture with that article could've just as easily made it up as any "stagers."

I'm not saying it's not true because I don't know for sure. All I'm saying is it's not all that convincing unless you want it to be, and then of course 'it's what REALLY happened.' It's very suspect at best and flat out spin at worst. The left is just as guilty of spin as the right. I'll continue to look at anything like this with a major grain (make that a boulder) of salt until more facts are presented to support it.

[ADDED: Well said, Mat! ]

[ April 10, 2003, 20:37: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

 

I've read in the news that many Iraqi-Americans (and presumably other Iraqis not living in their home country) were very happy. Naturally, they are the ones who would probably be more riled up about the (presumably) accidental deaths of civilians in the bombings. Of course, there are many Iraqi-Westerners who are angry at America being a "watchdog".

I've also read that not everyone is ecstatic about the U.S. military. Ecstatic about the removal of Saddam Hussein, little doubt, but ecstatic about the arrival of the military... well, it certainly ain't unanimous.

What I worry about is that there is going to be little control now beyond that of the U.S.' and their allies' military. I saw a political cartoon today. The Iraqi people were pulling down a big statue of Saddam. They failed to see the Demon of Anarchy and Chaos crawling out from the pedestal.

Hopefully will go well for Iraq and the troops stationed there.

 

Velcro and I had this very discussion last night after some obnoxiously smug commentator went off on the anti-war celebrities. My point was this: if someone believes that it was wrong for the US to go into Iraq in the first place, a quick and apparently successful result doesn't change that fact. Their fundamental premise that there were other avenues to be pursued remains intact.

Of course, we have yet to see just how "successful" we really were...

 

Sorry for the last post people, Wasn't myself at that time. So here we go again

One thing that always gets on my nerves is seeing politics "dressed up" i.e hearing things like "This is a great victory for freedom, light and peace in the world" and "We shall free (insert name here) and bring the light of justice to (insert name here)"

World politics is crap, for a lack of a better term.

And when I say crap I mean that it is ugly, dirty and not "good" in any way. Dressing a war up in fancy phrases doesn't change anything. people still die, even if it now is a "War of light and justice, a war for freedom, liberation etc etc)

And Ragusa, I've always respected you, but I don't know If I belive in these theories. Of course the Iraqis were celebrating! Bagdad has fallen! this is a new era! A new beginning for the Iraqi people (etc etc.) If I were there I would be celebrating too.

Look at the "Khmer Rouge" in Kambodja. When they won, there were celebrations, people on the streets, the whole thing. They were also celebrated as saviours, come to end a long war, but does that mean they were "right"?

I bet you all know what the "Khmer Rouge" did to the people of Kambodja .

Please try to understand one thing. I'm not feeling sheepish, not at all.
I am in fact in favor of the removal of Saddam, since he's an evil (why do I use that word? It's dangerous )bastard. But don't fool yourself. the US goverment is not after the "Liberation" of the world. There are countless of countries who really needs it, and the US chooses Iraq -strange coincidence, no? considering the fact it has the world second largest oil supply. And don't belive that crap about WMD's. Saddam has no missiles to launch a (non-existing) nuclear warhead half around the world. You'd need really advanced missiles for that, and Saddam only has a few home made short range missiles and a few SCUD's.

The WMD is an excuse, nothing more.

 

I guess those of you feeling smug about things, having assumed the whole thing is over, haven't been watching the recent news - or maybe this just isn't shown in the US. What we are seeing on the screens now is Baghdad in chaos with looting and no law or order. We all see US marines looking very scared and nervous while wildly shooting at anything that moves. Strangely it also seems that officialdom assumes US English is the main langauge in Iraq as the troops have no access to translators and the leaflets are in English.

Of course I hate to see the media using one off incidents to sum up a situation but seeing 6 year old girls being shot in the head by Marines is difficult to live with. In this case, the media haven't even had to rely on one shocking story. In one clip last night we saw several innocent civilians being killed for the terrible crimes of driving a car and stepping out onto a balcony.

Now before the outrage startes, I fully understand why the troops are doing this. Christ if I was out there I'd be cacking my pants and shooting at anything to. The point is, before you start to celebrate the great 'liberation' and think that it justified war, look at the terrible costs and realise that this far from over. Of course, those who seem to love war, will no doubt be looking forward to WWIII part 3 - Turkey v the Kurds...