Neverwinter Nights Forum News

Remove all ads!

(Originally posted by Veldrin)

Here are today's Neverwinter Nights forum highlights. Please take into account that these are only single parts of various threads and should not be taken out of context. Bear in mind also that the posts presented here are copied as-is, and that any bad spelling and grammar does not get corrected on our end.

Don Moar, Tools Programmer

Patch 1.31: 1. We're learning from past mistakes. The VLHP (very large hak pack) problem is a prime example. The test cases have been modified to include checks against extremely large hak packs.

2. We already offer everyone in the community an opportunity to help us test each update during a beta phase and have been doing so for many months now. This has actually been quite successful and as a BioWare employee and fellow NWN player, I'd like to extend my own thanks to those of you who choose to donate your time to help the rest of us get a better update.

3. 'Proper' QA? Are you aware of any cost-effective (for a small private company) ways to ensure that there are NO bugs in a piece of software as complex as NWN (that doesn't have lives depending on it)? The only mechanisms I'm aware of include keeping change logs, following test plans and using automated regression testing. However, even these things won't catch _everything_. If you have any other suggestions or can recommend any literature on the subject, I'd be happy to consider it.

4. If we didn't release it when we thought it was ready, when _should_ we release it?

5. I don't really know what to say about that one. The 1.31 update is currently going through QA. Technically, an unreleased update is always in QA but at this point, I think the code for the 1.31 update has been locked down and so is going through a 'final' QA pass. This adds time to the overall schedule and, in general, results in a better product no matter what faults actually make it through. Trying to reduce the number and severity of the faults that make it through are constant challenges, however and require support not just from QA, but from the rest of the design and development teams. Fortunately, we've got an entire company full of people who want nothing more than to do exactly that.

6. We've already done this on numerous occassions.

7. The number of beta's is usually dictated by the number and complexity of the changes in the update. Sometimes only 1 is required other times 4.

Also, I don't think anyone from BioWare has ever said that if you're helping us with a Beta that we don't want you to report your bugs. The point is, upgrading to a Beta is a risk and that by doing so, it is understood that you are going in with your head up and eyes open. This means that if your module is corrupted by the toolset or some function in the player or dm client is broken and you lose your favourite character or last saved game that we can't help you. It is expected that you won't risk such valuable data without having adequate back-ups. From a practical point of view, I think bugs are a fact of life in PC gaming - there's just too much variation in things that are beyond our control (cd-rom drive and video card manufacturers, hardware drivers, operating systems, compilers, etc.) to ever get a bug-free release. Of course, that doesn't count the bugs that _are_ within our control (e.g.: VLHP bug). That's when the more managerial / academic part of me struggles with improving the basic processes my teams use when writing their software in the first place.

David Gaider, Designer

Epic Levels: We're not ready to talk about HotU's features, and probably won't be for a couple of months yet. As far as Epic Levels go, everyone on this message board has the chance to give input on it... the final decision on it, however, must necessarily remain with us.

Quote: So if feedback is still being accepted, this is a good sign that no final stage is at hand. Great!

Let's just say that, while the course can still be changed, it is certainly already charted.

Quote: As long as you are there, if Bio had it's way, what would everyone there like to do next for SoU? And I mean if money, WotC, time, etc were not an issue. What would you like to include to NWN?

I don't really care for rhetorical questions very much. WotC, Hasbro, time and money are always going to very much be issues for NWN's development. If these things weren't an issue, then we would want the same things that any other fan would... cloaks and robes, lots of cool monsters and new tilesets, direct neural interface for the DM, raises for everyone, candy canes for all the poor children, blah blah blah.

Quote: I have played user made mods, as I stated before, but they are irrelevant to the judgement of NWN.

It's fine that you think that, Visceral, but the existence of the mod community for NWN isn't an incidental thing like in some other games where a toolset is released as an afterthought or the community grows outside of support by the developers. With NWN, the mod community was part of the core concept and is part and parcel of the end product. You can buy, for instance, a very nice sound system these days that has all sorts of features. The fact that you choose to simply use the CD-player and nothing else is your choice... but it does not make those other systems irrelevent and the fact that other people not only use these systems but comment that you aren't getting the full use out of your purchase really shouldn't surprise you.

Patch 1.31: Patch 1.31 will come... not quickly enough for some, probably too quickly for others (especially if some bugs make it through). I suspect the wait won't be very long at this point, but I'd like to address more the idea that the community can make better QA testers that our own and Atari's.

Some community members, perhaps... but properly reporting a bug means including detailed information on what is happening (as opposed to "it's broken") and the chain of events/actions that led up to that problem (even if it is as seemingly unnecessary as "I picked this class" or "I have this hak pak being used"). The more (useful) info that is included, the better, because solving a problem necessitates being able to re-create it. Unfortunately, about 75% (and I may be being generous, here) of the bugs we receive at the nwbugs address simply do not include that information or anything close. It's not even that we expect bug reporters to be technical experts... sometimes the level of communications skills are so low we cannot understand from the e-mail exactly what the nature of the complaint is. And there are a lot of these e-mails to sift through... hence the auto-response.

Now I'm not saying that the community help we do get isn't helpful... far from it. It's vital, in fact, especially considering that NWN is one of those games that requires lots of different eyes on its many systems. But the difference in the kind of report you get from a professional QA person and a community member is huge... as one would expect it to be. Don't blame QA that there's not enough of them to go around (that will always be the case). Sometimes it seems like opening up the QA process to the public is the only solution... but the trade-off for extra eyes is also a lot of extra work (as in e-mails to be sifted through) not to mention the fact that you *still* won't catch everything. After four rounds of public Beta for 1.30, for instance, not a single community member tested out the DM Client... so it's definitely not the answer to all our problems. Just thought I'd point that out. You may now resume impatient panting.

Quote: And apparently, neither did a single member of the Quality Assurance teams. Nice DM Client Test Plan. (sorry, low blow, but I just couldn't resist)

You can go to the DM forum where we had a very lengthy discussion on this. Consider it a low blow if you like, but the fact that the DM Client is at the very bottom of the testing priorities for QA is an unfortunate reality... the player client and the toolset are always going to get higher priority as they are far more widely used, not to mention that testing the DM Client takes multiple QA members for a single task. We could really use the help of those who use this feature, and the fact that after 4 rounds of public beta of the last patch that not a single one of them did is disheartening. So are the bugs, I know, but this is how it is.

Dumb Dialogue: Well, here's the thing. It's not so much that the dumb dialogue options were too much work. When we started SoU we actually were including them in without even thinking about it... after the NWN OC, after all, it was something of a habit to write every PC response twice. Upon talking about it, though, the problem we had with dumb dialogue was really that it wasn't good for anything. Most of the responses were a bit "hyuck yuck"... and it seemed to us that most people would at least like to take their own character seriously, even if he had a 6-8 Int. We eventually decided that it was better to reward higher Int rather than to punish lower Int. We would restrict PC responses that were very witty from those with low Int and also provide occasional "smart options" in plots to those with high Int. It also turned out, while we were writing, that losing the dumb dialogue was incredibly refreshing. After doing them for so long I just plain didn't realize that writing dumb dialogue is very tedious. The chance of me wanting to hang that particular stone around my neck anymore is, ummmmm, gee... let me think... zilch.

Quote: I just wish I got more than that stupid picture when I looked at the HOTU page. Some kind of information, anything so we can start speculating, having discussions.

Exactly. Right now the only thing really that can be written about HotU are those wish lists that border on the ridiculous. If we were to give out even a little information at this point, that would just fuel the speculation which, while fun for message board regulars to write about, can be quite damaging to the project. When we're ready:

1) We'll provide a place to discuss HotU.
2) We'll give out lots of information and an FAQ, so that nobody can read it.

The original announcement of HotU was just to say that a second expansion did exist. Another announcement for the above will take place... but I don't think we're ready to overshadow SoU just yet, so it's going to have to wait.

Quote: void SetName()

Just to point out: you will never see this in NWN. I didn't believe it myself, but one of the programmers went through a long diatribe that involved something about resource allocation as to why a creature's name can't be altered. I understood almost none of it, but it seemed very dire. I have to take his word for it: he got very stressed at the thought. It would be easier almost to come up with a new "nickname" field or something... but even having that override the displayed name on-screen or in dialogue could be a potential mess. The end result is that if we want to have changeable names for a future project, we'll have to express that desire a lot earlier than the stage NWN currently is in.

Quote: Ok heres the skinny! A game company TRIES and TRIES to create an IMMERSIVE ENVIORNMENT, i.e. playing EQ for 40+ hours a week(some did). If the camera hak created an immersive effect for thousands and thousands of people.(it DOES!) Then why/how could a game company ever see to take it away?

When did we take it away? Brandon's hack involves changing the .exe file, which means everytime a patch comes out that changes our .exe it's going to overwrite his hack and he must put out a new version. The camera is already unlocked via console command in NWN, and a new version of Brandon's hack is also available.