My Next Party

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It's been a while since I've played IWD2 and after playing a party all the way thru IWD1+HOW+TOTL, I decided that it was time for another foray into IWD2.

I'm an IWD2 and IE veteran. However, I've never played a monk and and rarely played a bard, so this particular party feels a bit underpowered by my normal standards.


Here's the party:

LG Aasimar female, Ftr X/Pal (of Helm) 2
STR 18, DEX 13, CON 15+, INT 8, WIS 10+, CHA 16+
Weapons: Qstaves and darts

LG Drow female, Monk (Order of the Broken Ones)
STR 12, DEX 20, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 18, CHA 5
Favored Weapon: Bow, Short Sword, fists

NG Human Female, Bard
STR 12, DEX 16+, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 14+
Favored Weapon: Enchanting Magics and Bow

CG Moon Elf Female, Silverstar of Selune
STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 18, CHA 8
Favored Weapon: Sling and Mace

CG Aasimar Female, Sorceress
STR 12, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA 20+
Favored Weapon: Fire Magics and Crossbow

CG Tiefling Female, Rogue (perhaps Rogue X/Barb 1)
STR 16, DEX 20, CON 16, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 4
Favored Weapon: Longsword and Sling


Yes, you read it right. My ftr/pally will be armed with a quarterstaff. I'm going for something different.

And, yes, I'm playing a pure (or nearly pure) rogue. I like rogues and this particular rogue is one that I intend to use for a lot of sneak attacking with her.

And I'm intending on trying to play the sorceress as a bit of a pyro.

One thing that I am a little concerned about is whether a monk will be a decent enough tank to handle the job.


Any comments, etc. are very welcome.

 

Why pal2/ftrX? If you are going paladin, go all the way or ftr4/palX. Make use of the save bonuses, lay on hands, aura of courage, etc. By the way, I like the QS and darts. There are some good darts in this game. Maybe less INT more WIS if you want to cast spells (good backup for cleric).

On the monk, why the high INT? You don't really need skill points, put them in STR if she will front line, or CON for more HPs.

Bard needs more CHR if you want to be effective.

Soceress, maybe less INT(maybe your talker, needs skill pts) or WIS, more DEX. Remember, she will have no armor.

Rogue may want more INT, needs a lot of skill pts.

I know some don't like min/maxing, but you seem to do it on some, but not others.

Finally, I like mix of weapons, but I never have more than one slinger, only one good sling in the game. Plenty of bows and darts.

I always enjoy 6 man parties, het to try many different classes this way.

Good luck.

 

GG, some replies to your queries...

1. Why Ftr X/pal 2? Why not Pal X/ftr 4?

Roleplaying reasons. This character is not a truly pure as the driven snow paladin. She's more of a god-touched warrior. And I don't care that she can't cast any spells or get any of the better pally abilities beyond level 2.

With 2 levels of Pally, she'll get the CHA bonus to saves and the Aura of Courage. Yes, she won't have the good pally abilities, but I'm knowingly foregoing them for RP reasons.


2. Why the high INT (and low STR) with the monk?

I took the highish INT because I wanted her to get enough SP to take Hide and Move Silently. That said, a 10 INT would have been sufficient. Stealth is something that I value GREATLY in my playing style. If I'm going to play a monk, it WILL be a stealthy monk.


I pumped it up to 13 so that she could take the Expertise Feat at a later point.

I took the lowish STR because I intend to use the Ease-of-Use sub-mod that allows monk fists to be treated as light weapons and use weapon finesse, thus using DEX, not STR, for their to hit bonuses to the attack roll.

I suppose that I could lower her STR to 10 and put 2 more points into CON for the HP. In truth, I don't really know where I'll be adding stat points at the stat increases. I'm thinking that CON would be a good idea.


3. Sorceress' INT & DEX?

12 INT isn't really all that high. And since she's an aasimar, an INT of 12 will only get her 2 SP/level. That'll only really cover Concentration and Spellcraft.

I know that she won't be wearing armor (duh.), but she will be wearing robes, cloaks, magical bracers, rings, and mirror image and other buffing spells at need. I've never seen much need for a sorc to have a really high DEX to survive. Never been a problem before.


4. Rogue's INT too low?

It's high enough to get the job done. Worry not.


5. My min-maxing philosophy...

I don't worry much about CHA for many characters. However, I'll never lower any character's INT below 8. That's a nearly unbreakable policy of mine.


6. Choice of sling

There are more good slings in the game than you realize. Also, there's a difference between bow/xbow and sling... sling bullets add the STR bonus to damage. Arrows and Bolts do not. While that works fine for low STR mages, a nice mid to high STR character loses the benefit of the STR bonus if he chooses a bow or Xbow.

From an RP standpoint, the other choices are perfectly acceptable. I've almost always put a bow in the hands of my rogues. I wanted to take a different road this time. I see my rogue, named Kitty (lots of RP background to that name), as not being the most trained of people. Slings are fairly simple weapons. Heck, if daggers had better range and there were more returning daggers, I'd have probably had her use daggers.

I gave Kitty "sling" so that she could use her STR bonus. And that's the same reason that I'm having my cleric ("Aetana") use slings.


7. Darts

Yes, darts are often underused and underappreciated weapons in IWD2. I think that one reason is the old paradigm that darts are perceived as a mage's weapon from the old 2ed days. However, another reason is that their range is rather short, compared to bows, crossobows, and slings.

I tend to view darts as just another flavor of throwing daggers. if there were as many good and great ThDaggers in IWD2 as there are darts, I'd probably have my Ftr/Pal 2 use ThDaggers. That said, I don't see her as using darts all that often. She's going to be a master of the quarterstaff who will only use a dart or throwing dagger when circumstances require it.


8. Bards and CHA

Is my bard's CHA too low? CHA 14 is only the starting value. I intend to increase it as she levels up. And I intend on givng her some CHA enhancing items as well.

Is there some other reason that I should give her more CHA points at creation?


Keep the comments coming.

 

Ah, that party will do fine as it has the main party roles covered. Are you going to start all of them off at the start of the game, or add them as the game goes on?

The monk will be fine. Monks are only weak at the start of the game but become awesome as they level up.

 

No problem with the roleplaying aspects.

For the hide and MS skills, you really don't need to pump it up a whole lot to accomplish what you are looking for. I had a 14 DEX barbarian with his 1 Skill pt per level throwing a pt here and there in MS and hide, and perform just as well as the dedicated rogue. At higher levels, many of the monster can "See Invisible" (I think the game cheats) so even a cheated high skill (Dalekeeper) still gets spotted.

7: I don;t think there are any "returning" daggers in the game, so I heartily agree that darts are given a bad rap. Not sure if the game can't manage it or what the 3.0 or 2.0 rules are now, but couldn't you shot 2 arrows a round vs one bolt or bullet, and throw 3 darts a round. The damage wouldn't be that great, but think about disrupting another spellcaster with multiple ranged hits.

 

GGhoul, there are some returning throwing daggers in the game. IIRC, 3 or 4. And at least two of them are NOT random treasure. Lamia's Tongue and IIRC, Yasha's Sting, if I'm not mistaken.


Regarding the number of shots per round, IIRC, in IWD2, they all start at 1 per round. IIRC, darts were 3/round back in the old 2ed days.


Regarding stealth, I agree that a medium DEX character could be stealthy, but if he's wearing medium armor it will be really difficult, given the rather high armor check penalty associated with nearly all medium armor.


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Harbourboy, I intend to start with a full party of 6 from the get-go, as I usually do.

Frankly, about the only member of the party that I could leave out at the start would be the monk. All of the other 5 characters fill critical roles in the party. (Tank, Talker, Medic, Nuker, Rogue) Obviously, I could have melded the "talker" role into any of the other characters, but I really, really want to give a bard a try.


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I was thinking about my drow monk last night and I'm having second thoughts. I'm seriously thinking about changing her to being a pure fighter-archer. Max DEX, lowish STR, good INT and CON. An archer who will be ruthlessly focused on archery. BTW, the good (i.e. 14 INT) would be to get the Expertise feat and to get additional skill points so that she can have some decent skill in Move Silently and Hide. I've considered having her take 3 points in Small Blades (for a 2nd weapon specialization) and 4 levels of Concentration, then take Maximized Attacks to improve her archery that much more. However, I'm ambivalent about spending a couple of Feats on Small Blades (although I do intend on them being her backup melee weapons), just so I can take a 3rd feat that can only be used once a day. I think that I'd be better off just taking other supporting feats that can be "on" all the time.


One downside of switching Ilaxii to being a pure fighter-archer is that it will mean that I have 3 characters that will "want" to wear light armor. I don't absolutely HAVE to have Ilaxii in light armor. She'd only really need it for stealth.

I've played lots of rangers and don't want another one right now. The idea of Ilaxii being a brutally maximized archer is intriguing to me. And, frankly, I almost do not want to give her too much STR to start, cuz I don't want her to be in a rush to charge into melee.

BTW, here's the stat line I envision for "Archer Ilaxii":

STR 12, DEX 20, CON 16, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 6

[ January 11, 2006, 17:26: Message edited by: crucis ]

 

I would lower the paladin's wis for higher cha. Wis only affects will saves while cha affects all saves and even more things.


I would only raise wis when levelling up the monk. It's more important than dex or con for her.


Your bard needs high cha far more than your sorceress, since bard spells are mostly enchanting spells.
Charmed or not charmed is a bigger difference than full or half damage.
I also believe that cha affects the powerful siren's yearning song.
She also benefits from high cha if she's your party diplomat.


Dex isn't very important for her, 13-14 is nice for the very useful rapid shot feat, but con and cha is more important.

I don't know why she needs so high int. My human bard had 3 int and the 2 skill points/level were divided between concentration,diplomacy and bluff.

I'd lower her strength to 10.


You might consider increasing dex to 13 for your cleric so she can get the rapid shot feat. When you win the potion of holy transference by beating the second range on the battlesquares she can gain 2 wis for 1 dex when drinking it. I'd lower cha to 7 instead and maybe even more for higher con.


For the sorceress I'd lower both strength and dex by two for higher con (more HP and better concentration).

 

Kmonster, thanks for your comments.

Let me answer them in turn.

1. Lower Pally WIS and increase CHA.

Hmm. Not a bad idea. Somethig to consider.


2. WIS and the monk

I would have thought that DEX would be more important. DEX will improve the monk's ranged AB and her AB with weapon finesse. Aside from increasing the AC and the Will saves, what will increasing the monk's WIS accomplish? Increasing DEX will also increase the monk's AC, so that balances out. And IIRC, monks already have strong Will saves. It seems to me that you get more bang for the buck out of increasing DEX, not WIS, for a monk.

Am I missing something here?


3. CHA and the Bard

OK, maybe more CHA would be useful for my bard. I'm not locked in on any stats yet, since I haven't created the characters in IWD2 yet.


4. Bard and INT

I would never lower any character's INT below 8 (6 if the character's race comes with a -2 INT mod), under almost any circumstances. That's just the way I am. I see a character with an INT of 3 as not having sufficient raw intelligence to figure out how to put one foot in front of the other, certainly not sufficient to lace up a pair of boots or use a bow.

Call it roleplaying, if you like.


5. Cleric and DEX

OK, something else to consider. I was trying to keep her CHA at least marginally decent for a little bit of undead turning. But I suppose that perhaps I could take and cast Eagle's Splendor on my cleric prior to any major undead encounters.


=========


BTW, as I mentioned in my previous post, I've just about made up my mind to convert my drow monk to a drow fighter-archer with the above mentioned stats.

I think that I'll be a bit more comfortable with on one character in my party that I'm not completely certain how to handle.

 

On the cleric's CHR, I played through several times and NEVER turn any undead until I got into HOF (where the skeletons and zombies were annoying and dangerous, but could still be destroyed with one click). SO I wouldn't fret over that stat, unless he/she will be a talker.

Why drow for the archer? I really like the SR and inate abilties, plus the +2 DEX, but you could go human for another feat upfront or tiefling for similar advantages, but only CL+1 not +2.

 

GGhoul, I've been able to blow up most of the undead in the Kuldahar Valley in Normal mode with a pure cleric with a decent CHA. In HOF, IIRC, I was able to turn, but not blow up, the skellies in the Fell Wood, but the undead in the KV seemed to be completely immune. That said, I've never had a cleric with a high CHA and I've never even thought of using Eagle's Splendor to increase my cleric's CHA prior to using undead turning.

I realize that undead turning in IWD2 is of limited utility, but I've had enough success with it that I'd hate to totally write it off with a wretchedly low CHA.


Regarding the race of an archer, I suppose that the choice of drow is for a number of reasons. First, I was starting with a drow monk who had stats that were very archer-like. Second, I'd never played a drow before and wouldn't mind giving it a try. Three, of all the classes, a fighter would likely be the least likely to be seriously hampered by the -2 ECL. Four, I have a custom pic that I made up for the drow monk, but would work just as well for a drow archer, that I'd love to use.

These are the stats I'd see for my drow archer:

STR 12, DEX 20, CON 16, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 6

If I went for a Moon Elf archer, I'd need to lose 4 stat points. If I intended to go for the stealth skills I wanted, I'd need to keep the 14 INT, so those 4 stat points could have to come from STR, CON, and/or WIS.

Tiefling would be a decent option that would require only a loss (from the above drow stats) of 2 stat points and only a -1 ECL. And I'd still have the 20 DEX.

With normal human, like you said, I'd get the extra feat and the extra skill points, which for the build as I envision it wouldn't go unwasted. OTOH, I'd lose 4 stat points and the 20 DEX.

The nice thing about a Drow in this instance is the two nice racial goodies (Spell Resistance of 11 + character level, +2 to all Will saves) that the other 2 elven races don't get. For a fighter who won't get such great Will saves to start with, those bennies are fairly valuable. And we shouldn't overlook the more generic elven bonus of +2 to saves vs Enchantment magic. Since enchantment spells are almost always going to be Will save based, that's +4 to Will saves. And that's nothing to be sneezed at for a tank.

I may not be fond of a -2 ECL for a spellcasting character, but for a tank, I'm surpised that I've never played a drow before now.

I'll reconsider playing a human archer, but I suspect that I'll stick with the drow, for all the reasons I've listed above and I've kind of gotten used to the idea. I think that I want to let Ilaxii D'matra, devotee of Selune and member of The Silver Owls, have a chance to seek out the source of the evil that is attacking Targos.

 

Currently playing (with hopes of moving onto HOF) 2 DG and 2 drow. So I agree with the SR viability. Never relized how many extra dialogs drow can get from many NPCs.

 

" Never relized how many extra dialogs drow can get from many NPCs."

Really? Hmm. It's a shame that she's not anywhere near being one of the party's talkers.

 

I think that it is sad that INT is even rated the way that it is in DnD. Who says INT precludes basic abilities such as walking and speech due to low intelligence? My son of 4 speaks fluents and can run and I would say that even the dumbest of dummies in DnD could do that, yet they are rewarded with patheticness for having INT below normal. It's insane. Break the rule and min the INT since it makes no difference to the game anyway.

 

Most of the monk's special abilities and extra feats depend on wisdom, so the DC to save vs her special attacks.


High charisma is essential for your bard. I would even consider making her a drow or aasimar for 20 cha.
Since the last song is gained at level 11, the best song at level5 the ECL penalty might even benefit your party.
I knew why your bard didn't have 3 int, i just didn't know why she had 14.


About int/wis

Int handles how fast you learn or study abstract things.
Wis handles how good you know how to handle real life, what to do in certain situations.


A traditional pre-industrial farmer who lives on his farm without contact to the outer world doesn't need int, but he needs wisdom which he gained from his ancestors while growing up.

A school kid on the other hand doesn't need wis, only int. Parents or the rest of society take care for it.

Walking and simple communication are automatic mechanisms used by nearly all forms of animal life, I don't think there is more than 1 wis or int needed for it.

 

@Khazraj: Not gonna happen. Ever.


@Kmonster:

1. Why does my bard have an INT 14?

Skills, skills, skills. I want her to be very well-skilled in Diplomacy, Bluff, Knowledge Arcana, some Concentration, and some Hide and Move Silently.


2. Bard as drow or aasimar

While I appreciate your point about the potential value of having a 20 CHA for a bard, I think that my party's racial make-up is set. And I'm not sure that it would work with the back story for the human bard (Tera Blackmane) and the extremely cat-like tiefling rogue (Kitty).

Besides, I'm trying to maintain a reasonably diverse racial mix in this party and am not powergaming, beyond a mild amount of stat optimization.

EDIT: I'm going to consider making the bard Tera an Aasimar. To keep the same number of skill points/level (something I value for this character), I'd need to bump her INT to 16, but I could bump her CHA by another 2. Something to consider. Besides, I could stick with the same custom portrait (well, with possibly giving her the golden eyes).


3. Prior stat suggestions

Kmonster, I've thought about your prior stat suggestions and will likely incorporate at least some of them. For example, I've already lowered the Silverstar's CHA by 1 and increased her DEX by 1 to 13 so that she can take Rapid Shot.

And I'll probably do a little tweaking of the Bard's stats to bump her CHA up, although I'm not sure if I'll max it out. I've already lowered her STR by 2 and increased her CHA by 2 to 16. But I'm ambivalent about lowering her DEX any further. IMHO, it's a fairly important stat to her character, since it defines her ranged BAB and her AC, particularly since she'll be wearing light armor and will want to get as much benefit from her DEX bonus as possible.

And I haven't decided whether to do the -2 WIS, +2 CHA bump for the ftr/pal. I don't dispute the efficiency of it, only the roleplaying aspects of it. I haven't yet decided if it fits into the character as I see her.


Thanks for all the comments. Keep'em coming.

[ January 12, 2006, 18:41: Message edited by: crucis ]

 

The monk adds wisdom modifier to his AC... just thought id let you know

 

He already knows that.

But as someone else noted, hes special abilities (that requres a DC) uses Wisdom for modifier.

 

Thanks, darkstrike, I did already know that the WIS mod added to the AC. That's why I was questioning whether WIS or DEX was better for stat bumps, since either one will increase the AC for a monk.

But as raptor mentions (and I'd read in the rules a day or so ago, upon closer examination), the WIS mod adds to the special attack abilities. It makes for a tough decision. DEX will improve his ranged attacks. It will also improve his attacks with small blades/weapon finesse. And if you use the Wiemur EoU mod section that makes monk fists into "light weapons" that can utilize weapon finesse, DEX will improve a monk's AB with fists.

OTOH, the WIS bonus will improve their special monk attacks, like stunning attack and quivering palm.

Which (DEX or WIS) ends up being a better use of stat points over the long haul? It seems very open to debate. QP is only usable once a day. (SA may be only usable once a day, but I truly don't know.) OTOH, increases to DEX will improve AB's all day long.

 

Your bard doesn't really need a good ranged AB, since she'll help her party more when singing. Tymora's melody, siren's yearning, war chant of sith are very powerful songs which should be only interrupted for powerful spells like charm person, dominate person, confusion or shades.

Although she shouldn't wear armor (except bracers or mage armor) when she wants to cast spells, her AC isn't very important.

Monsters usually attack the nearest party member which usually isn't the bard who is singing or casting in the background.

If your bard is attacked (didn't happen often in my game, I had the bard script activated for her) she can protect herself by casting a fast mirror image.
Your bard can even help your party when she sings while she is fleeing.

 

so you did crucis! Read that post wrong!