Mostly Missile Party

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I am eagerly awaiting the delivery of my new BG1 game, and I'm already in the planning stages of my first party. The PC is going to be a gnome fighter/thief, which I will change to a berserker/thief when I go on to BG2.

However, I'm also using this play through in an attempt to make a party using almost exclusively missile weapons - something that I've been meaning to do for a long while, but never seemed to actually get around to doing. In keeping with the fact that I will be turning my fighter/thief into a berserker thief, I won't be putting more than one proficiency point into any missile weapon, so he will be using either throwing daggers or throwing axes (exclusively axes once he gets the +2 returning axe under Candlekeep).

So, I'm asking for suggestions of the best missile weapon party one can make, and I don't care what alignments the NPCs have. As this is a missile weapon party, I don't want any stinkin' mages. Bards are allowed, as they can get good THAC0s. Also, I would like to have either one cleric or druid in the party.

Here's what I've come up with at this point. In addition to my F/T, I would be remiss if I didn't include both Kivan and Coran in the party. The only unfortunate part about that is Coran isn't available until Chapter 4. I'm strongly considering including both Khalid and Jaheira, as not only does that meet my healing requirements, but Jaheira's THAC0 can get pretty good with slings if I give her the GoD, and Khalid starts with one proficiency point in bows, meaning he will be specialized by level 3. I'm thinking the final member of the party will be Garrick, so I have some spells, access to wands, and he can use the light crossbow of speed from the get-go. Is there a better combination out there than this?

I think I should be OK with weapon availability as well, although I'll be using a lot of bows. Between Khalid, Kivan, and Coran, I'll need the Longbow of Marksmanship, Composite Longbow +1, and probably a regular Composite Longbow, which should be superior to the short bow +1. I'm not sure if it is better to give Garrick the Light Crossbow of Speed, or a short bow +1. That seems to be about a wash. Jaheira is pretty much stuck with slings. PC, as I said will be going through a lot of throwing daggers (and unfortunately I don't know of any returning weapon until Candlekeep).

 

Well, if you kill Aldeth in Cloakwood, you will fight his brother in Baldur's Gate and he drops the best crossbow. It gives +5 to hit and I think +2 to damage.

 

There are two longbows of marksmanship (+2): one from the bandit camp, the other from the undead knights in the firewine ruins (pick their pockets before you do their quest). There is also one +2 shortbow in Baldur's Gate. I prefer the light crossbow of speed over the heavy crossbow of accuracy. Be sure to get the gloves of archery (+2 to hit) and the gauntlets of dexterity.

Best archers in the game are:
Coran (has ***)
Khalid (can get ***)
Kivan
-- I guess Shar-Teel could get quite good if you got her early enough. Kagain can get good if you give him the gauntlets of dexterity.

Alora, Viconia, and Montaron are all excellent with slings. Jaheira and Yeslick to a lesser extent (but good with gauntlets of dexterity).

The 'reach out and touch someone' party:

PC: +2 throwing axe
Kivan: +2 longbow
Coran: +2 longbow
Khalid: +2 shortbow
Kagain: Light crossbow of speed/gauntlets of dex
Viconia: +1 sling

Of course, your choice of Garrick with the LCoS and Jaheira with GoD is just as potent (although I would prefer using Yeslick to Jaheira in this role).

 

It never ceases to amaze me that there are things about this game that I STILL don't know. I never knew about the bow in the Firewine Ruins - and I never even considered attempting to pick any of their pockets - which one actually has it?

 

Upper row, leftmost (NOT the left column). I learned something too!

And now, my late lamented archer party...

PC (pure elven fighter for superior firepower): Composite Long Bow
Imoen: Short Bow +1 -> Eagle Bow
Khalid: Composite Long Bow -> Long Bow of Marksmanship
Jaheira: Darts
Kivan: Composite Long Bow +1
Kagain: Light Crossbow of Speed (bought with the proceeds from the Ring of Wizardry)

Composite Long Bow = +1/+2
Short Bow +1 = +1/+1
Composite Long Bow > Short Bow +1

Though if I'd known about the second Long Bow of Marksmanship, I would've gotten that (+3/+2) for my PC instead of the Comp.

No arcane in the party (Imoen, being the only thief, stays un-dualled), but enough divine in Jaheira, and good missile attacks too. Jaheira didn't have terribly good aim with her darts, but with 3-1/2 attacks a round she was at least as good as Imoen with a short bow. When there were five or more enemies, Jaheira and Imoen would team up on one and everyone else would take their own. About eight to ten HD down per round. Plus, when you get good enough that you don't need healing as much, Entangle adds a whole new dimension to the fights (not to mention Hold Person).

EDIT:

The Crossbow of Accuracy is great for 'shoot once, then engage in melee', but my money's on the Crossbow of Speed for continuous firepower. Having (nearly) double the attacks is nothing to sneeze at, even when compared to +4 THAC0 and +1 damage extra. Though you might need that for a non-warrior, a warrior will be hitting almost every time even without that.

EDIT2: And am I the only one who finds it hilarious that you're advising Aldeth to kill himself?

[ May 30, 2006, 21:19: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

yes. I'm finding Hold Person amazingly useful with my Priest Character that I've been playing. I'm not sure why but it just seems to work better for my PC than it ever did for most of my priests.

 

F/T - Khalid - Kivan - Coran - Garrick - Yeslick

You can give Garrick both brossbow and bow profiency for added flexibility.
The best crossbow, the light crossbow of speed, is as good as a non-magical composite long bow, but you'll want to have someone to use the bolts you find.

Clerics are far superior to druids in BG because of their animate dead spell. The game will be harder if you keep Jaheira.

If you don't find enough throwing daggers your F/T can still do 6-16 damage per round using a composite bow without being proficient.

 

Montaron: Gauntlets of Weaponskill, Crossbow of Speed. he is devastating. He is also good with daggers, Darts, Sling, and axes. I like using him as a sniper with the Crossbow of Accuracy and bolts of biting against mages & clerics .

Coran: Long Bow of Marksmanship, Bracers of Archery. Awesome .

Tiax: He Rules All!! with a +1 Sling

Imoen: Eagle Bow+2

Kivan: Composite Long Bow +1. Kivan is always handy with a bow.

Use the wand of monster summoning to throw a little cannon fodder in the way and watch the missles do the rest. this group is a little thief
heavy, but is that a bad thing?

 

I only suggested the HCoA because I figured that you'd only be using a crossbow for a non-warrior, well besides Kaigan. I find that it is a lot better than the LCoS for a character that is in the back ranks and just picks people off as the fighters engage in melee.

 

Well, not only to use bolts - remember that bards cannot use composite long bows. Use of composite long bows are restricted to fighters, paladins, rangers, and their multi-classes where applicable.

As for the arguement between the HCoA vs. LCoS, first of all, no, I'm not going to kill Aldeth. And yes, as Fel rightly assumes, the name I picked out is specifically referring to this character in the BG series. So no killing Aldeth.

Secondly, I think it really comes down to who is using the weapon. If you can manage a decent THAC0 with the LCoS, then it is definitely in your best interest to use it, as the extra attack will yield greater damage per round, even though the HCoA is going to do more damage on a single attack. I'm not sure if one way or the other is clearly surperior for Garrick. More of my attacks will hit if I were using the HCoA, but I get 2 attacks versus 1 if I use the LCoS. So even though I won't be hitting as often, I'll be firing twice as fast.

On Jaheira using darts - never considered that, but it should work. Darts vs. sling - it appears darts would be the winner there, again, not based on damage, but on firing rate - but does that work for magic sling stones as well? Hmmm...

Darts - 1d3 so average of 2 * 3.5 attacks per round = 7.
normal sling and stones - 1d4+1 average = 3.5 * 1.5 attacks per round = 5.25.
sling +1 and stones +2 - 1d4+4 so average 7 * 1.5 attacks per round = 10.5.

That's interesting. Early in the game when you can't afford the magic stones, and the best you can do is a +1 sling from the Beregost Smithy, darts are clearly superior. However, slings jump back out in front later in the game when you can afford the magic stones.

Actually, I forgot - I'm making a BARBARIAN/Thief, not a berserker thief, so that eliminates the need of only taking one proficiency point in missile weapons. I'll probably go with axes anyway, but I may use something else before getting the returning axe in Chapter 6.

[ May 31, 2006, 16:14: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]

 

About darts vs slings for Jaheira, there are several other things to consider

1.) You can get a damage bonus for specialization.
2.) You have a better thac0 if you use magical slings.
3.) Don't you get a strength bonus for using slings ?
4.) Darts have shorter range, reducing the time you can shoot
5) An item slot full of darts doesn't even last 6 rounds long while you can shoot 80 rounds long with filled ammo slots

 

I didn't think barbarians could be multiclassed or dualclassed at all in BG2 ? if it is the "new" barbarian (together with monk and sorcerer) that was added to the game inspired by 3rd edition. i thought all those 3 was completelly out of multi and dual class.

 

@raptor - I'm using Shadow Keeper to give my multi-class a kit. Initially I thought like you did, that barbarians weren't able to be included in any multi-class combination, but as T2Bruno informed me, in Shadow Keeper, Barbarians are considered fighter kits.

Yes, but wouldn't this damage bonus apply to darts as well? They are both in the "missile weapon" proficiency category. It seems any bonus applied to one would also be applied to the other.

True. There are magical darts available such as darts of wounding and darts of biting with high THAC0 bonuses, but there probably aren't enough of them to use all the time. On the other hand, you can get a sling +1 in Beregost in Chapter 1.

No. The only sling that applies a strength bonus in the entire series is the Sling of Seeking in SoA. Regardless, Jaheira will be using the Gauntlets of Dexterity to improve her THAC0, so she wouldn't be getting a strength bonus anyway.

Yes, but not significantly. You're talking about maybe half a round to get into range, and since you'll be firing faster then, you'll make up for the one extra bullet you would have fired otherwise.

You will be able to go much longer without reloading, but not 80 rounds! In fact half of that - 40. Remember in BG1, your quiver only allows 20 per slot, not 40. So 60 divided by 1.5 shots per round is 40 rounds. Sill that beats darts which have to be reloaded every 6.33 rounds.

 

Okay, a couple problems with this.
1. It's 6.5 average for the third line, leading to 9.75 per round.
2. +2 sling stones are rarer than magical darts. If you're going to include the +2s, include a line for the magical darts. (+1 sling stones are more common, though.)
3. Though it's typically hard to estimate, something about THAC0s and likelyhood to hit should be included in the calculations. The easiest comparison would be of things with the same To Hit modifier, like the normal items, which make the THAC0 the same in any situation since it's the same character. (Also +2 darts vs. +1 sling and +1 stones would be good.)

I even consider that a bonus. It puts Jaheira in front of everyone else, and she was usually the first to engage in melee when the need arose. This not only cuts down on the dart usage, but also provides formation even in a firing line, keeping your weaker members safe from harm. In addition, the time is usually less, as the enemy will likely be closing on you too. (Unless they just stand there doing nothing like a screenshot I just took in BG2. )

Correct, but Tutu uses the BG2 engine...and its items. The stacking is 40. (Or infinite with Tutu Tweaks...)

 

There's a sling +3 in the expansion.

 

I had Jaheira using darts in a game once. She must
have the Gauntlets of Dexterity and the best armor
you can give her because with darts the range is short, she will be the closest target for the enemy. She got hit a lot in my game until she got the Gauntlets of Dexterity, boots of avoidance,
and full platemail. After that she mopped the floor with tough guys and mages using the magic darts to stun poison or both. very nasty that wench . Just keep a close watch on the dart
supplies and don't waste them on cannon fodder

 

My bad - you are right.

I only find +2 sling stones hard to get your hands on early in the game. They appear to be in almost limitless supply if you are willing to pay merchants. There are many available in Ulgoth's Beard for the middle chapters, and it appears that the supply at Sorcerous Sundries is virtually limitless - I've never seen them run out there. +1 darts are fairly common, but +2 darts certainly aren't. Darts of wounding/biting aren't common to find on dead enemies, but can be purchased at several locations. However, due to the cost of them, they are prohibitively expensive to buy in bulk.

I fail to see how this is going to change the analysis at all. If we're using items with the same total modifiers, then the chance to hit is going to be the same for both weapons, meaning the raw numbers will change, but not the proportions relative to each other. Example: If weapon A does 4 damage per round, and weapon B does 6 damage per round, you'd say that weapon B did 50% more damage. However, if after factoring in THAC0, you say that you'll only hit 50% of the time, then weapon A has an adjusted value of 2 damage per round, while weapon B has an adjusted value of 3 per round - but that's still 50% greater than weapon A.

The only way I would see a point to this step is if the THAC0s of the two weapons were different, as then your chances of hitting would be different. But both darts and sling stones are classified as missile weapons, so if the total enchantment is the same, the THAC0 has to be the same, and therefore the damage they do per round proportional to each other has to be the same.

 

Am I the only one who has gobs and gobs of cash by that point?

That's pretty much what I was saying. If the To Hit bonuses are the same, you can shrug them off. But the point is that if they're not, something needs to be done regarding that. And, as I said, it would be easiest to just compare those with the same enchantment level, even though the comparison is inherently flawed due to availability differences. Like this:

Darts: 1d3 damage & 3.5 ApR = 2 * 3.5 = 7
Sling & bullets: 1d4+1 & 1.5 ApR = 3.5 * 1.5 = 5.25

Darts +1: 1d3+1 damage & 3.5 ApR = 3 * 3.5 = 10.5
Sling +1 & bullets: 1d4+2 & 1.5 ApR = 4.5 * 1.5 = 6.75

Darts +2: 1d3+2 damage & 3.5 ApR = 4 * 3.5 = 14
Sling +1 & +1 bullets: 1d4+3 & 1.5 ApR = 5.5 * 1.5 = 8.25

Sling +1 & +2 bullets: 1d4+4 & 1.5 ApR = 6.5 * 1.5 ApR = 9.75
Sling +3 & bullets: same as above

Sling +3 & +1 bullets: ... 11.25

Sling +3 & +2 bullets: ... 12.75

Ultimately, the comparison eventually goes toward slings. Though it doesn't quite make it with straight numbers, the extra +3 to THAC0 over the +2 darts probably makes up for it. But either way, they'll still end up as a weak link when compared to the others using big bows.

NOTE: And yes, they're sling bullets. The game may say stones (I don't remember), but they are most definitely bullets. Stones do 1d4 damage, bullets do 1d4+1. Therefore, the ammo in the game is sling bullets.

 

@Felinoid: You added the bonus attack for specialization but you ignored the bonus damage.

Your values only apply to a level 7 or 8 warrior who is proficient but not specialized. Not very common.

 

I left the specialization bonus out on purpose. Because missile weapons are supposed to get +2 to hit and no damage bonus in 2e (in general, anyway; I never looked into slings or darts). I also am not 100% sure how BG1 or Tutu does it, so I opted to leave it out so that it could be included later if someone was actually sure that they get a bonus to damage.

And my numbers are for Jaheira, who does not get to level 7, or gets there so very late in BG1 that it does not matter.