More than 300 proofs of the existance of god!

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http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
Wasnt sure where to post this but seeing as there is a serious undertone to the fun I thought it would sooner or later digress into some semblance of serious conversation.

 

The truth is that most of "logical" proof of the existence of God looks like that. The problem is that God is supposed to be believed, not proven. There is no faith if there is full logical proof (although hints and circumstancial proof do help in faith), and if faith is required of the members of the religion, then there can be no full scientific proof for them.

 

What is the difference between knowing something and believing something?

So faith is something that should be doubted?

 

I will not get involved in any debate as to whether God exists or does not exist:

1) I will never be able to prove to a non-believer that God exists.

2) The non-believer will never be able to prove to me that God does not exists.

EOD

I enjoyed the link and found it fun. Only went through the first 100. Will look further through it another time.

 

What's the difference between seeing something coming and believing he will come yet?

 

@Nakia

Thus. you are agnostic. Am I right?

 

Hmm, it is rare, to not say that it has never happened before that me and Chev agrees on something relating to religion. What he said in his first post was more or less what I was about to say in my first as well but refrained because I thought it might be a tad too inflammatory.

Nakia, I would say the burden of proof lies with those who claim that something exist. You can never prove the non-existance of something. If I say that there is an invisible purple chainsmoking hippo in my apartment is it up to you prove that it isnt there or is it up to me to prove that it is there?

 

In my oppinion, those proofs are all BS!

What I think is that no one can prove that god does exist and no one can prove that god does not exist!

EDIT: I'm starting to believe more and more in the Plainscape theory that says:

"The more people believe in something, the more probable it is that that someting exists."

 

IMO:
Believe is something you trust to be true without having seen the proof. It's should not be doubted.
Trust and Believe are almost identical when it comes to religion. You know it. It's a fact to you at the time you believe it.

If you start to doubt, you don't believe or trust the things that you used to know.

Believe is not something that's continuous. Everybody has his doubts.

Here's a joke about 'believing':

During one of a professer's routine classes, he decided to raise a controversial subject:

He stood in front of his class and said: "Can anyone hear God? Can anyone see God? Can anyone smell God?" After a long pause, the professor concluded: "Because none of you can hear, see, or smell God, I conclude that there is no God."

Not to be outdone, one particularly potent student stood up. "May I address the class directly?" he asked.

"Yes, you may," the professor replied.

The student went to the front of the class and began: "Can anyone hear the professor's brain? Can anyone see the professor's brain? Can anyone smell the professor's brain?" After a particularly uneasy and long pause, the student finished: "Because none of you can hear, see, or smell the professor's brain, I conclude that the professor has no brain."

Now some of you will say that if you'd open the professor's skull, you could see his brain. And I believe that if I wait long enough God will reveal his mysteries.

 

@Kelvon Shadowmane: er, hmn, ah.

1) I don't think of myself as agnostic.

2) Religion has played a big part in my life.

3) I am probably agnostic.

@Joacqin: Believe me, if you claimed to see such a creature I would not try to prove to you that it didn't exist.

 

Argument 348:
Whoever cooked up that list went from subliminal irony to overt sarcasm in the first 5 (I think) reasons, and then felt compelled to point to every bit of ironic remark he makes. Meh.

---
Somebody went to really great lengths to, through irony, prove that God does not exist. If he doesn't exist, he is not an important subject. Do we actually discuss, e.g. ioytujokemestilnigidatriwones? Do we consider them an important subject? Do we feel the need to prove their non-existence? What if I told you those ioytujokemestilnigidatriwones tell people to kill each other. Would you listen? Or would you accuse me of being crazy?
What I mean is, there is no point:
a) disproving the existence of something which does not exist.
b) being bothered by something that does not exist.
Ad.:
a) if something doesn't exist, every person should be able to see that. Those that would claim it exist would be labelled as mental cases.
b) if something doesn't exist, it is unimportant.
Therefore:
a) we would have to assume a great majority in this world consists entirely of mental cases. One of the symptoms of being insane yourself is accusing everyone (or almost everyone, except for the people that think alike) else of being insane. The author of the list is therefore insane.
b) if someone argues, and spends time arguing, about something that does not exist (ergo: is unimportant), the person has mental problems. The author of the list is therefore insane.
Ergo:
1. The person who cooked up that list is a mental case.
2. He doesn't believe in God.
3. Insane people do not believe in God.
4. There are sane people who believe in God
5. It is insane to not believe in God.
6. Insane people make wrong assumptions.
7. It is therefore wrong to assume God does not exist.
8. Therefore, God exists.
---
Sounds absurd? It is supposed to. It is, however, quite a logical thinking path. I'm just using their own arguments.
---

And no, there's no point arguing about it. Believing is that = believing. Does believing exclude knowing/proving? I believe yes, it does. St. Ignatius (IIRC) is credited of saying:
"If God appeared in all His glory for all people to witness, He would take away their free will that instant. Someone who would witness such pure love would never again accept anything less. Thus taking of free will."
Furthermore, if you knew God exists, what would be the point of believing? Do you believe in the fact that water scalds past certain level (past 37 degrees Centigrade is a good point of reference)? Or do you know it and accept it as a fact -- take it for granted? Would you willingly submit yourself to being scalded by hot water?
Now, let's assume you know, as it has been proven, that God exists. You would know which faith is correct, you would know what observances to put into being. Else, you would be submitted to eternal punishment in hell. Would you willingly submit yourself to eternal punishment?
I see it as another way to lose free will...

 

While I am aware that it is impossible to prove that God exists, and have yet to see an arguement that God doesn't exist that does not fall apart at the assumptions (thus the arguer makes an ass out of himself), I do believe that God lives. I have made changes in my life to reflect this faith (giving up alcohol, drugs, Coffee and pornography). I believe that it is important to choose to do that which is right because it shows our gratitude to God for that which he has done for us.

 

Knowing

believing

Knowing and believing are the same because there is no absolute fundamental basis on which you can place what you know.
I know, that the earth is round, it might be because my eyes are decieving me.
I, therefor have to believe that my eyes are not decieving me.

Knowing is build on faith, when one knows that God exists, he has no free will.

[ January 26, 2005, 09:57: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

toughluck, what the hell are you talking about?

A very short answer to what I think is the geist of your post, the non-existance of something non-existant is of great important if there are millions of people who believe in this non-existant entity and that this entity has told them all manner of things on how people are supposed ot live their life and such.

 

One thing I don't agree with Morogoth on, and I apologize if this is going off topic, but it was claimed that when someone knows that God exists, they lose theri free will.

I believe that God exists, He has given us commandments, but has also given us free will and the responsibility to choose to obey His commandments and follow His counsels on how to live.

 

If god is really out there, may he please fix the error called humans, for screwing up the planet.

 

God does not exist, and I can prove just be reading the bible (a very good book, can stand up against most fantasy books):

God is almighty (he did create the world by his own voice, didn't he?)
God is good (else there would be little point in believing in a supra-natural being)
Would a good and almighty god cause this much suffering in the world?

Eventhough, I completely understand that some people have need to believe in some bigger scheme to give a form of meaning (or order as you like) to their lives. What I however can't understand is why some schools (in the US amongst others) teach creationism (i.e. that god created the world) as the one and only truth, while a proven theory, the evolution theory (a distilled form of Darwinism) isn't even mentioned, or at best is mentioned as a silly thought of atheist to explain how the world started...
And then when you try to argue with someone on the evolution theory, you get a moronic response: 'do you REALLY believe man can worth from monkeys?', which can only be explained by 2 reasons:
1/ the school system is flawed, and the evolution theory was not properly explained
2/ the person was a moron
However since I believe that almost every person has his potential to understand his own start (we went through a whole line of evolution ) I fear that the reason of the persons ignorance lies in a flawed educational system...


(BTW: the evolution theory doesn't state man evolved from monkeys, it states we had a common ancestor... It's just like you and your nephew... you didn't evolve from eachother, nor do you look alike, but you share a common ancestor (2 grandparents in this case)... Most people understand evolution theory a bit better after being told that example and also most stupid comments are pointed out as BS)

 

Now, believing in God is irrational. Ie. If I believe in God, I do it because it is my choice, and not because I can prove that God exists.

However, not believing in God is also irrational. An atheist must say: "I believe there is no God." This is also irrational, because as you cannot prove God's existence, you also cannot prove that God does not exist.

@Lord Sven -- God is good, hence he had given us free will. He had given free will to every sentient being, including angels, and some of them thought they, God's creation, could be greater than God himself. Satan is the source of evil, and can influence people, by promises and flattery, to commit evil. You can find a theological explanation to that rather easily.
QED.

 

Amen chev.

God is not the cause of suffering is humans, we do it upon ourselves. Without evil humans cannot know good, if we were created perfect we would not know what good is and what evil is. Fence we were created flawed and with a will to do as we wish, he also gave us a book to guide us, so we can choose to do good or evil. As heartless as it sounds, we must suffer in order to know good.
Some things we cannot understand, and believing that we understand everything is arrogant. Like a gigantic painting 100km high and 100km wide, if we were to stand close to it we would only see chaos. But if we were to stand back and see the big picture, than the chaos wouold make sense. I believe that humans can never see the whole picture, but our faith allows us a glimse of the big picture

Love like emotion is irrational, humans are very much irration beings hence we believe in irrational things. But that dissproves neither nor does it make them wrong.

 

This--the original post--reminds me of something a college friend of mine wrote:

Three beers in One? One beer in Three? Three in One? One in Three?......What the hell! I never did understand metaphysics!