Mob violence in Sydney

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http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,17538160%255E421,00.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/australians-not-racist-says-pm/2005/12/12/1134235983741.html

It seems Australia is not such a good example of a cooperative and positive multi ethnical society, NonSequitur.
Multiculturalism sucks.

 

1. Any place has its problems. It's hardly an ongoing and constant issue, and I'd be interested to see what (if any) connection this has with the recent anti-terror raids in Sydney and Melbourne. This article suggests that it's linked to the Bali bombings, although I'd expect that to be more of a convenient excuse on the part of the thugs. The actual locals had their own comments on the matter, which undermines it somewhat.

2. Have a look at this story, this one here or even this one from the Herald-Sun. Interesting to see another self-described radical nationalist group doing its part for society...

3. Any idiot or their organisation can create an outbreak of violence with a few helpers. I seem to recall you advocating letting the "real Russians" loose on a few people you weren't fond of, Svy.

4. If you're going to use this as a brush to tar multiculturalism with, you picked badly. This is only newsworthy because it's so rare in this country, and has been categorically condemned by everyone that isn't a radical nationalist extremist or thug.

Nice try, Svy, but no cigar, mate.

 

You said in Australia everyone got along fine, and you had not racial riots or a more serious problem. This occurrance proves otherwise.
What all of this has to do with real Russians set loose on a few people? This is about the shortcomings of your multicultural policy.

 

@ Svyatoslav:

Does this answer the question?

Yes, it proves that caucasian people are no better than any other people, that racism on that account, if not in all cases is totally inaccurate way of classifying people and that nothing makes people acting irresponsibly better than alcohol.

 

Ichor,

Ok, but if you expect an output, I need an input from you firstly.

 

You show me what you think is Utopia, Svy, and I'll show you a blind man and a bridge I want to sell. You're just looking for something, clutching at any straw you can find, huh? This is not representative of Australia; it is a bunch of cowards hiding behind patriotism as an excuse for bigotry.

Thugs and louts are going to exist, no matter what country you're in. Do you honestly think this was a spontaneous uprising with no organisation at all, and no idiots at the helm? How's this for inspired and eloquent oratory?

If you're a racist, you just find something to dislike and amplify it out of proportion to justify your actions. This guy isn't a hero; he's a thug, and a coward. Mind you, the people who launched reprisal attacks are no better.

I can't recall ever saying that life here is perfect. It never was, and it never will be. I don't delude myself by pretending that if everyone was like me, it would work.

No, it has the same underpinnings. If you think you can explain away violence by people sharing your basic world-view as "oh, well, they don't count because they don't represent me", you're unwise to bring this up and not expect to have your own words used against you.

This stuff makes me and any decent person sick; it's a hold-over from 60 years ago, and local culture in the area. If you honestly think that this "proves" anything except that there are always racists and idiots in any society, or that multiculturalism is poison, then I'm truly sorry that you feel such a need to prove me wrong.

 

That was it, sorry if there's little for you to work on, but I'll need some pretty heavy argumentation to sway me into thinking that any kind of violence would be acceptable.

And even if I might regret this pretty soon: What is this thread about? Australia bashing? I'm not aware enough of what's going on in Australia to partake in such a topic.

If this is about how multiculturalism is not a good thing, then I cannot see how nationalism, closing borders to immigrants, racism and bigotry would be any better. Are there any middle options? Perhaps, but I imagine that when a conflict has escalated to violence, those middle options come to the minds of the very few.

Resorting to violence is often for those who are extremists on one opinion or other, narrowing the options down to theirs and their opposites might help their cause. They might gain more followers in doing so, and that might be reason enough for them. It is still not acceptable.

 

No. When we were discussing France back there, you mentioned Australia as a good example of a fine and stable multicultural society. I am just showing the situation is not as peaceful and fine as you make it seem. Wasn't this some kinda of retaliation to begin with?
I know a Bulgarian living in Sydney, and he tells me not only middle easterns, but South Europeans as well are called Wogs all the time, everywhere. Too much for your pretense peaceful multicultural society. By the way, he used to work as a bouncer in night clubs, and he heard it all the time.
So, this daily name calling - wog - is not representative of Australia as well, despite being wide spread phenomena, and represents only a bunch of "thugs and cowards" as well?

It is very easy when you call people who disagree with you idiots and thugs. And yet you accuse me of dividing people into the ones who think like me and the others, while putting quality labels on them.

So, you can assume all that about him by this mere quote? Yes, I am pretty sure he is not a "hero", but I am not too sure on thug or coward either.

Haha. Another cheap shot at me. However, you do seem very opiniated on people who are not like you.

Again, we are talking about the shortcomings of Australian multiculturalism.
If you want to change the subject, feel free to do so though. That said, no matter if these Aussies agree with me on a homogeneous society, they will never represent me, indeed, because it would be a little too stupid to claim what an Australian is doing some considerable distance away from me, is representing me somewhat; even because their doings have no repercussion at all here.

Funny, I don't remember you, or any other "decent" people, that much sickened when the riots erupted in France. What I saw was cheap excuses to turn victims into agressors and vice-versa. All according to the same "non-Whites can riot as much as they want, Whites can not" logic.
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Ichor,

This thread is not about Australia bashing. Where would you get this idea? I guess anything concerning this specific event, or regarding multiculturalism in general is on-topic.

 

Interesting logic, I must say. There is racism, therefore mulitculturalism sucks.

Not exactly Aristotelian.

That's nice. Have you considered the possibility that one man's (woman's?) perspective doesn't encompass the totality of the matter?

Then you saw what you wanted to see. Or, alternatively, didn't see enough. Read the stuff on www.ft.com regarding the riots, for instance. Just for a start.

 

What is mulitculturalism anyway? Having to abandon your own culture for someone elses?

 

I'm not getting drawn into the multiculturalism thing (I still firmly believe it to be a good thing, mind you) - I'm just going to have to say that the rioters are ****tards. It seems like there's large groups of people forming in Sydney right now - mostly gangs and such (apparently police disarmed some who had metal pipes and such). There's also some bikie gang off on a mission to 'defend the Australian way of life.'

Well they're certainly going about a bloody stupid way of doing it. But hey - yay for dip****ty nationalism and mob mentalities.

 

You got it wrong. There are racial riots in Sydney - as well as lots of ethnic cursing - thus the situation is not quite as peaceful and stable as supposedly.
Multiculturalism sucking is just my little addendum.

What totality of the matter? I am saying ethnic cursing is very common in Sydney, because my friend had it not once or twice, but lots of time. There is also this whole riot happening now. I don't know what is the "totality of the matter", but I fairly sure it is not "there are no multicultural strifes in Australia".

I was talking about the reactions in this very same forum - including Sequitur. By the way, I did not find anything in this link.

 

No, "Taluntain". It means there is an ethnic tension in australia, ever present. Maybe it was you who chose the "obvious" part of my post, instead of the "subtler" message.
I don't troll. If I did, would I not be banned already?

 

And? There were a number of people who thought the rioters ought to be put down hard.

Try using the search function for "france" + "riots". Turns out you have to register, but whatever--it's free, and well worth it.

 

This is crazy stuff to be going on in Sydney. I didn't think this sort of thing would happen so close to home. I hope that it all gets sorted out quickly. Why do some people always have to end up fighting and destroying things? I hope this sort of trouble doesn't jump the Tasman Sea to New Zealand.

 

Wasn't there some sort of problem in Christchurch a few months ago relating to racial issues? Nothing of the scale of this Cronulla incident though.

 

It can't have been that bad as I didn't hear about it. There is always a bit of race related crime about the place but the police usually deal with it before it gets out of control. I certainly don't fear to walk around most NZ cities at night.

 

I said it was an example of multiculturalism working. For the most part, it normally does, and this is a completely abnormal event in Australia. Here's some background on Cronulla and its local cultures, history and a little background to the violence. To sum it up:

And I'd agree with that sentiment quite thoroughly.

There are comedians in Australia who have made a living off appropriating the word "wog", from Santo Cilauro to Nick Giannopoulos. In many ways - at least in Melbourne - "wog" has similar currency to many people of non-Anglo European descent as "nigger" does within some African-American circles; it's a term of self-identification, not a racial slur.

Yes, there will always be intolerant and racist people - but I haven't heard "wog" used by an Anglo-Saxon in years. Then again, Melbourne and Sydney are a little different.

No, I called them that because their actions will achieve nothing except possibly radicalising opinion (a self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one), and because a pre-arranged thousands-strong mob bashing people unconscious for racial reasons can be objectively called thuggish and cowardly. I'd bet that few of them would do it alone - so there goes the pride argument as well.

On a preliminary basis, yes. I'm fairly sure he's good to his kids and his family, too.

If someone's willing to go on the record saying this in a mob situation, but not in everyday life, or to bash people with a few hundred mates, I'd say it's a fair assessment. While I loathe their attitudes and policies, I would rather people with such attitudes pushed their agendas publicly so that they can be held up for scrutiny.

I was in fact referring to the "Keep Australia White" brigade, but I can see how you'd take it as a cheap shot. Besides, I see all of my own worst traits through people who are most like me (and not just racially like me).

Spare us the false magnanimity, Svy. You posted looking for either a fight or an argument, and I drew attention to a perceived bit of hypocrisy on your part. It's only relevant to discussion in this thread because you brought it up.

Excuse me? My first thought was to prevent further damage and halt the rioting that had been going on for several days, rather than assigning blame on any side before re-establishing order.

Strangely enough, I don't think it's good practice to scapegoat ethnicity without examining everything else first. Still, between shock-jock commentators and some political groups, I don't speak for all of Australian society. A bit of shame, really, since both the far-left and the far-right tend to go overboard on these matters.

I won't assume that you'd go to all this trouble just for my sake. If this thread is about baiting me, Svy, then I'll be really disappointed. I had thought (and hoped) you were above that kind of petty action.

[ December 13, 2005, 06:51: Message edited by: NonSequitur ]