1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Life has become harder, experts say

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Montresor, Oct 17, 2007.

  1. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,103
    Media:
    127
    Likes Received:
    183
    Gender:
    Male
    I thought this article was interesting enough for the Alley.

    The article is way too long to quote in full here but here is the heading:

    Quick synopsis: After paying the fixed expenses, today's average family has less money than thirty years ago.

    What say you people? Is life harder today than in the middle 70'es?
     
  2. Rallymama Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2002
    Messages:
    4,329
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    11
    There are far more ways to spend money, and much less restraint in doing so. Moderation is no longer valued, and rampant consumerism drives the need for ever-escalating purchasing power. Me, I'd love to be able to be a stay-at-home Mom, but it's not in the cards we've dealt ourselves.
     
  3. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,775
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    440
    Gender:
    Male
    I see young families with new cars, plasma tv's, nice computers and the latest cell phones. There appears to be expectation from too many young people to instantly live the life their parents took 30 years to obtain. They do this through credit.

    Thirty years ago college students couldn't get credit cards. The entire buy-now-pay-later culture has put the average middle class family deeper and deeper into debt -- and the interest payment on such actions are probably the difference.

    I don't think it's any harder, people today just don't want to wait until they can afford something (i.e., pay cash) when they can buy it now 'and not pay until NEXT YEAR.'
     
  4. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    6,815
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    336
    I remember a discussion on the Boards not too long ago very similar to this one, and the consensus of those who remember the "good ol' days" was exactly what Rally and T2 said.

    I grew up in a middle class family. We had a modest house, one car, one TV, and not a lot of "toys". We went out for dinner maybe a couple of times a month. Now, it's bigger houses, multiple cars, multiple TV's, gadgets coming out of our ears, doing something that costs money several times a week, etc. Plus there's the "must have it now" attitude.

    Acording to the article, major fixed expenses have gone up by $21,000. But of that, $17,000 relates to a second car and daycare (which wouldn't be needed if one parent stayed home). Basically, most of the wife's after-tax income is paying for another car and daycare. The rest of the increase in fixed expense relates to mortgage; since the 1970 cost has been inflation-adjusted, the increase would seem to be due to the size of the house (which needs to be bigger in order to hold all the extra crap we own now compared to 30 years ago).

    So basically, life may be "harder" than it was 30 years ago, but that depends on your definition of "hard". And if it is harder, it's because we've done it to ourselves.

    [ October 17, 2007, 16:35: Message edited by: Splunge ]
     
  5. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Hmmm.... I got a completely different impression of the article. What I read said all of the luxury items being purchased actually accounted for a small percentage of total income. Basically, that it's not the $4 lattes that money is going to. I read that housing costs and education are the big thing that are eating up people's pay check.

    The article defined "housing" as mortgage, property taxes, home owners insurance, and utilities. Surely, the size of the house will affect all of those factors, but the article stressed that the increase we see between 30+ years ago and today far out-paces inflation, and cannot be accounted for solely by the increased house size either.

    Was I reading a different article?
     
  6. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,775
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    440
    Gender:
    Male
    The math in the article is somewhat faulty. You get tax credits for child care and there is no way you pay $22K when you make $74K (and own a house).

    Also note the car payments -- two new cars. I would call that a luxury. I have always ensured only one car payment at a time, even if that means driving for a few more years on an older car.

    Health insurance back then was an 80/20 at best and overall the cost of medical would have been greater for the average family.

    I think the after tax income should be more and the fixed expenses could be less for the 'modern' family that is trying to conserve -- that they choose to spend more is exactly what I was addressing.

    All in all, I think the article is misleading and just adding fuel to the 'look how much worse I have it' fire.
     
  7. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,815
    Media:
    11
    Likes Received:
    58
    Gender:
    Male
    Isn't perhaps part of the reason that with both parents going to work, there's less incentive to raise the pay levels than there was before, with just the father working? It was understood that the man would be supporting his family and now it looks like no one expects to be able to do that and wages aim at about half of the family needs.
     
  8. JSBB Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2003
    Messages:
    4,054
    Likes Received:
    1
    Based upon my years in public accounting and my observations of my co-workers situations I have found that those who are middle class but cash strapped typically are that way because of housing or child care costs.

    I have looked at many two income families and then looked at the child care bills and concluded that they would be better off if the lower income spouse stayed at home. The bills for nannies, day care, summer camps etc. that I have seen have been bloody high although I am sure that there are more economical alternatives.

    For those with housing woes I normally have little sympathy. Generally they are the people who insist on living within the big city and then complain about their house costing $800,000 when an identical house out in the suburb where I live would cost around $275,000.

    Personally, I would have to say that I am middle class and my standard of living is pretty damned good. Of course I am single with no dependents so comparing my situation to someone trying to support a family really isn't fair. Of course that does go completely against the "single people are at a huge disadvantage because they can't share fixed costs" school of thought.
     
  9. martaug Gems: 23/31
    Latest gem: Black Opal


    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2002
    Messages:
    1,710
    Likes Received:
    59
    the numbers just dont seem right. almost everybody i know spends way more on childcare, insurance, cars, food & especially clothing!
     
  10. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,423
    Likes Received:
    30
    I'm guessing that the reduced percentage of food cost is the fact that restaurant meals are more expensive...

    But what ever happenned to the idea of saving up money for a major purchase? Sure you get a used TV when you get your first place, but you save up for a nicer one. Same with furniture, cars and the like. That cuts down on the payments and the like...
     
  11. The Magister Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,364
    Media:
    16
    Likes Received:
    7
    Gender:
    Male
    Hmm. We pay more with money that is worth less then it was back then. That sounds about right.

    As for is it harder? Nope. Technology has made almost everything easier (at a slightly higher cost I'll grant you.) Depends if you want easy living or more money. ;)
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.