JUPP question

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Jukka,

I had some questions to ask you about JUPP, if I may.

I am running the arcane party and have been
having good success with it, until . . . . The tank has been more than adequate for my needs until I hit Battle Squares. The blasting power of this party has been great in mass battles, but I cannot get very far into Battle Squares before
being forced to constantly reload in the hopes of getting a foe I can kill. It's not that the tank is in any danger, it's just that he cannot kill things fast enough to win a square. I finally gave up in rank five and loaded Wes Weimer's ease of use mod and the "skip Battle Squares" mod just to move the game along.

This is a long winded way of saying: How does the arcane party deal with Battle Squares? I may not be the best player, are there any secrets you can impart? I have had the sorcerer cast Stoneskin on the tank and have had the Tank cast
Bull's Strength on himself. But this is still not enough for him to kill the
opponents in time. HELP!

My next question is, have you considered increasing the arcane party to 4 members? My arcane party has just finished the Fell Wood and the decoy and sorcerer are doing great. The tank, however, is struggling. Splitting levels evenly between cleric and druid means that he has low attack bonus, low level spells (3rd level in both while the sorcerer has 6th level spells), and his spells have much shorter durations.

In order to impove the divine casting, what do you think about making the tank just a Dreadmaster (with a level of Monk thrown in near the end of HOF?) and adding a drow female Dreadmaster(1)/Druid(29)?

[ June 24, 2004, 12:53: Message edited by: Khemsa ]

 

To your question how the arcane party handles Battle Squares: It doesn't, at least if you insist on doing it with just one character fighting at a time. Open the door to the north and keep the rest of your party tossing spells into the fray and THEN we're talkin' business.

I've received a whole lot of e-mail about the Dreadmaster/Druid 50/50 split, as it doesn't quite compare to the pure-class characters in the early or even middle game. The idea of having this character is that you need to "sacrifice" only one character slot for non-arcane magics while still keeping the main functionality that two separate characters would have.

It seems to me that your personal playing style could, in fact, benefit from splitting this character into two - you seem to like buffing up & beating the pulp out of your enemies more than this extremely fragile, magic-based party can offer. =)

 

Jukka,

Thanks for your response.

However, I have to ask. How can one get the rest of the party to help during battle squares? Can the remainder of the party simply leave the room they are shunted into and help with spells from the hallway? I cannot believe that the game allows this. If so, I will have to give it a whirl. In such a case, would it be better to have the decoy do the battle squares so he can be bombarded with AOE spells which the tank would suffer from?

Thanks.

[ June 24, 2004, 12:53: Message edited by: Khemsa ]

 

I normally just park the rest of the party OUTSIDE that north door, so that the golem doesn't teleport them away. Be careful that you don't step into the room, as that'll awake the golem and it'll come closer and teleport your helpers away.

 

i actually used my sorcerer to win the battle squares though i didnt use the JUPP party i took some advice from it. I used my sorcerer to do the last few levels as my paladin just couldnt either do it in time or even died sometimes against strong enemies like apocalyptic boneguards. I did this by casting destruction(nothng is immune to it, its better than finger of death) with my sorcerer against most enemies then against monsters that are easily stuned (this demon i cant remember its name but it doesnt have wings) i used chromatic orb and some melee. however i was a very high level because i level squated a lot and could mordenkainens sword if needed to against things like apocalyptic boneguards. You may need to protect her from fear however

[ July 03, 2004, 05:08: Message edited by: Goon66 ]

 

Jukka:

A few more questions if I may.

First, with regard to Battlesquares, I tried to keep the rest of the party outside the north door and still got teleported to the locked room. I tried placing the party in numerous places outside the room, but always got teleported away. Am I missing something? Do I have a different version of the game than you do?

Second, I have changed my tactics, concentrating more on arcane blasting and it is working fine. Am still frustrated by the low level spells the tank has: the Cleric/Druid is now casting 3rd level cleric and 4th level Druid spells while my Sorcerer just picked up his first 7th level spell.

What do you think about the following change in strategy? Have the tank level up as a Cleric till he hits 13th Level (giving Ressurection) and then squatting until he can take 12 Druid levels simultaneously (thus avoiding experience penalties). He would be stuck at level 13 Dreadmaster for *quite* some time, but once he gets Ressurection, there does not seem to be much reason for him to get higher level Cleric spells for quite some time. He should not need Barkskin till some time in HoF so waiting for the Druid levels will not hurt too bad. Is this viable or would squatting 12 levels be impossible and/or impracticable for the tank character to do?

Third, have you or anyone else ever figured out what the game design considers the "normal" average party level for the different Chapters/parts of the game? For example, what average level should a party be at when entering the Cold Marshes in order to receive the baseline experience from encounters? Such a guide would be very helpful for planning level-ups and general party strategy.

[ July 06, 2004, 14:24: Message edited by: Khemsa ]

 

As for your second question: The tank will miss out on vital hitpoints when begin to squat for levels!

 

@Maertyn

I imagine hit points and BAB will be the major drawbacks to squatting for that many levels. The lack may not be too bad as the decoy will absorb most of the enemy's attention, and I can have the tank stand back and throw Big Death to keep him out of harm's way.

If things got really bad at some point, I could just take what Druid levels I had accumulated and live with the 20% experience penalty. With four party members and two permanent mules he should still advance at an acceptable rate even with the penalty.

 

Keep us informed how your experiment is progressing!

 

@Maertyn

Am currently at the Ice Temple. Party consists of the following:

Decoy: currently character level 6 and squatting
Tank: currently CL 5 and squatting
Sorcerer: currently CL 6 and squatting
Wizard(my addition) Drow Monk(1)/Diviner(1) and squatting

This makes the party average level 4 and I got 6400 experience for the golems and Sherincal at the Ice Wall.

For an experiment I added two permanent mules right before entering the Ice Temple. This brought the average party level down to 3 and the golem in the first hallway netted 7200 experience!

Just for comparison purposes, I did a test where I took all the level-ups for the four main characters, making them levels 9, 9, 10, 8, party average level 9 and took on the golem at the Ice Temple entrance. That party only got 2700 experience for the kill. Average party level makes quite the difference!

It has been a challenge keeping the main characters at only level 5-6. The incredible AC on the decoy (27 before any buffing spells, 31 with Mage Armor) has kept the party alive long enough for the tank and the sorcerer to take out the opposition. The golems are much more challenging for this party than for my previous ventures. It takes a long time for the tank to wear them down and I go though a lot of healing potions. When i went through in prior goings I usually had the tank at around level 7 and the fights with the golems lasted only a few rounds, now they seem to go on forever.

I also used to have no problems with Sherincal, killing her quickly while suffering little damage in return. At these low levels it was quite the fight and she ended up killing two of my characters before I finally got her.

I will try to stay at these levels for as long as possible to rake in the experience. The fight with Lysara was easy, but once again the golem fight was long and was still going on long after Lysara and her Auerlites had been killed. I will save Battle Squares for last since I will *need* to level up to face that challenge.

Thanks for your interest, sorry about the length of the post.

 

I am not using the JUPP, but as far a level sqatting is concerned, here goes:
Aasimar Paladin[3]/Sorcerer[5]
HalfOrc Fighter[4]/Barbarian[3]
Drow Druid[1]/Cleric[6]
Drow Rouge[3]/Fighter[4]/Wizard[1]

These were my party levels at the IceWall blockade and till the Dragon fight. I finished the Battle Square levels 6-10 after the dragons.

The problems for a melee squtting are BAB and no. of attacks per round. Its no fun getting hit 4 times per round when you can only swing your axe twice. HP is secondary.
Also you intend to get to L13 then squat till L25! Theres just no way to do that, not for a frontliner.

 

@Shrikanth

That's an interesting way of doing things. Can you return to the Ice Temple after leaving it? In my game, the Ice Temple appears on the world map but is not selectable. I will have to try again.

If the tank were a frontliner I would agree with you 100%. However, the theory of the JUPP Arcane Party is to have a decoy character who has an incredably high AC. The decoy runs in front of the party and attracts all the attackers against himself. At that point the decoy and the other sorcerers/wizards unleash a massive number of destruction spells against the enemy. The decoy combines spell resistance, Evasion coupled with a high Reflex save, and Mirror Images to avoid being destroyed by that bombardment.

The role of the tank is to supply all divine spellcasting, including some bombardment of his own, and only to fight in the early stages of the game when the spell casters lack powerful destructive spells and also fight against magic immune monsters such as the golems.

Thus, my plan with the tank, if I squat from level 14 to 25, would be to have him stand back when a fight starts and cast some spells such as Recitation and Prayer then participate by using throwing axes to make kills from a distance.

OTOH, you may be right and it will not work out at all. Worse comes to worse I could take what Druid levels I have squatted and just live with the 20% experience penalty.

 

Good posts! You must be very patient with that technique... is it fun?

 

@Maertyn

Thanks. Intensive level squatting makes the game more difficult and thus, arguably, more fun. For example, in previous games I had my main three characters at around level 7-8 when I took on Sherincal and the fight was a breeze, no challenge at all. But this time when I was at level 5-6 it was a long fight and it cost me two characters KIA. Thus, fighting at the lower level was more dangerous, more intense and, thus, more exciting. That increases the fun factor, IMHO.

The only "unfun" part of it is psychological. One has to overcome the urge to level-up to get all the goodies that he is eligible to receive but does not have. For example, my decoy is currently Rogue(1)/Monk(1)/Cleric(1)/Illusionist(3) and squatting. If he took his level-ups he would become an Illusionist (10). With one click of the "Level Up" button this character could go from casting second level spells (which in his case is just a bunch of Mirror Images) to casting fifth level spells (being able to cast Sunfire would be so much fun considering how often he is out front, alone, and surrounded by enemies). It can be very hard to overcome that temptation.

 

Actually you can go further on till about the Black Raven Monastry, if I'm not mistaken. I returned as I had to level-up both the Sorcerer(for stoneskin and Improved Invisibility) and the Barbarian(for 3 attacks/round) to fight the Dragons.
You are right , in that it's not possible to return to the IceWall via the map. You can go back to the Wandering Village via map and then IceWall is the next area.

@Maertyn
You should try this level squatting too. Only level up when you just dont seem to have enough ammo to last out the fight, that too as few members as possible. Or if your maximum levels for a certain class have been achived.
However it becomes a very melee centric game with spells usually being for buffs. Though my sorcerer might disagree.
Also the fights get drawn out long enough for the opponents to pull all their tricks out of the bag. You will be surprised at how small that bag is.

It's hard to keep at the low levels. Both the Cleric and Sorcerer could cast their 9th level spells and the Barbarian would enjoy her Greater Rages if I leveled them up. But all one has to do is look at the difference in XP before and after the level-ups to be firm.
I'm in level 3 of Dragon's Eye and and those floating-purple-tentacled thingies gave XP 550 before level up and 74 after. That is a huge incentive.

[ July 13, 2004, 01:15: Message edited by: Shrikanth ]

 

Good points, thank you. One question though (again): Are you level-squatting in normal only? Is it viable in Heart of Fury™?

 

Im currently playing in Normal mode, though I do intend to take this party into HoF.
I dont see why level squatting is not possible in HoF considering that your party members should be L21 or so by the end of the game. Thus you have all the spells you need and most if not all the HLAs (what else would you call Tireless Rage?).

I dont know of any one who started HoF at L1 and survived, so Im discounting that senario. You would probably have enough headaches without level-sqatting in that case.

Oh. And Thorasskus gave 13200XP before level-up and 1425 after.

 

What level should you start HoF at?

 

@Sharikanth

Actualy, surviving HoF with a lvl1 character is easy. All you need is a summoner, that's absolutely all. I often start a solo sorcerer lvl1 on HoF just for fun of advancement after every goblin kill, being lvl10+ in the caves where they're hiding

A question though... This level squating. IIRC i got less XP even if i didnt levelup my chars. I distinctly remember this in HoF, i'm not to sure about the normal mode. If this were the case though, there wouldnt be of any use squating as you do, but i'm sure you cant all be waiting for levelups for no reason.

EDIT: Just tried. Works fine this level squating.
Maybe it didnt work before because the average party level didnt go up, eventhough one member leveled. Might be.

[ July 16, 2004, 12:45: Message edited by: Gothmog• ]

 

Sooo...
You have a Sorcerer with Summon Monster I clogging his spell book

@Bahir
Black Isle suggests you start HoF with charecters at level 15 or so to make it possible to go head-to-head with the upgraded monsters you will find.
This generally happens so late in Normal mode that people go ahead and finish the game with charecters at level 17-20 and then use that team to go through HoF.

Ofcourse people like Gothmog seem not to be afraid of HoF enough to go through a whole game and instead find ways to start off at L1.
I'll have to try this some time.