Jealousy

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In a thread in Whatnots, we were discussing jealousy in romance or relationships, which evolved into a side-discussion of the meaning of various gesture or behaviour when you aren't single. Double standards also popped up. Here's what Sydax wrote in response to one of my posts:

Back to Chevalier's question:"...If a girl speaks about cheating when she sees her guy talk to another girl, something is wrong either with her or with her upbringing..." That's the point; it happened to me several times not with one but with about 5 girls and asked some friends and it's the same; (must be this little town where everybody know eachother); if I was just talking to a girl it was a cause for a "fight"; but I couldn't even ask if I see her talking to a guy; like I said: one rule for us; for you another...

Whole-post quote from: http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/22/237/2.html#000060

I was about to spawn yet another semi-autobiographic reflexion, but I decided an AoDA thread would serve better.

One of my points in that thread was that become jealous about certain behaviour depending on what meaning they associate with it. Further, two biggest potential problems on the side of an overly jealous person would be maturity and culture differences or specific upbringing.

For instance: when you're a little boy, holding your dreamed girl's (boy's) hand is a big romantic event, let alone a kiss. When you move on to your teens, it's normal behaviour between you and your current girlfriend (boyfriend), or even date. When you're adult, it becomes normal to greet friends with a kiss on the cheek, to hug them, embrace while walking together etc even if they're good friends but not romantic interests.

But it isn't so simple. Some people stop at a certain stage and don't go further. Others come from environments which dictate that some of those things don't go for some people - while perhaps they allow some other things that don't normally go.

There's one good thing about expectations resulting from cultural or social differences: they typically work both ways, especially the social ones. Differences that come from stopping at a certain stage don't have this benefit and the outcome is like Sydax described - double standards.

It's normal that in a contemporary society where we cross paths with people of various religious, ethnic, cultural or social bakcgrounds, we adjust to those different groups when and so far as it's necessary. It may lead us to switching between a couple of different standards on the fly. There are people who don't kiss even good friends on the cheek and there are people who prefer to kiss on the mouth, or those who expect a cheek kiss even from new friends, friends' friends etc.

Then there are women who want to shake hands like men and women who will give a hand to kiss like in old times. Then you have men who won't kiss hands or won't shake hands with women.

Look, we've only touched greeting kisses and shaking hands and we already have a mess. What if we move on to hugging, walking arm in arm or hand in hand, dancing - from just dancing to slow dancing or fiery tango, going out for a movie, sitting on another guy's lap or letting a different girl sit in your lap, or touching one's face or whatever potentially amibiguous gesture that comes to your mind.

In theory, it would enough if people were able to separate material component from intention, a gesture from its meaning. If that's impossible for some reason - for example if someone believes that in a given case it can't be separated - people can always talk about things and work them out. But that's theory. In practice, we most often have situations like Sydax described, that you can't do something but aren't even allowed to ask if the other person does it. That's probably because most people either stop at a certain stage.

Of course, there are people who actually give reasons to be jealous. Some people can't get the subtle notion of the word "fidelity" or "exclusivity". In a similar way, they can also have disorders or come from strange environments. In many cases they need to be understood, but most often they are simply slutty. It's perfectly normal to get mad when they behave like that or if it looks as if they were and one doesn't need any disorder or cultural difference for that.

Your thoughts, please?

 

Someone send Chev on a 'concise writing' course!

I think it's more to do with people's insecurities and anxieties (oh no, I wonder if she likes him better than me).

 

Yeah...I think its to do with people's insecurities too. Especially if the guy/gal got dumped because their partner left them for someone else.

It can leave someone with a huge inferiority complex, not mention deep seated insecurity.

 

The problem is the worst when your 'friend' that you are greeting or farewelling is an ex. I'm still friends with a girlfriend of mine, I see her nearly every day at university. An old girlfriend of mine hated this. Fearful of old feelings becoming ignited again, even though my ex has a boyfriend.

I found out that she had also been talking to her ex and spending time with him.
Me: "Why do you complain about me seeing my ex?"
Gilfriend: "Because I don't trust her."
M: "Why?"
G: "Because she probably wants to get back with you."
M: "She has a boyfriend."
G: "Well she wants to get back with you AND she's a slut."
M: "And what about you seeing your ex?" (at this point I was very angry but not showing it)
G: "That's different."
M: "How?"
G: "Because."
M: "Because what?"
G: "Just, because - don't ask."
M: "What? No! Why can you see your exs and I can't see mine?"
G: "Because I don't trust her and you're supposed to trust me."
M: "Well, if I can't see my friend then you can't see yours."
G: "Why not?"
M: "Hmmm... let's see... because I don't trust him? Yes, that will do." (I do Mr. Burns proud)
G: "You don't trust my judgement?"
(Now rather than turning this into a tit-for-tat by asking her about trusting my judgement I went out on a limb, regretted it too, take note I was still angry about her comments about my friend)
M: "How can I trust your judgement on this? I'm struggling to trust your sanity!"
G: "She's a slut and I'm not. What part about this can't you understand?"
M: "I don't know... how about, the SEVERE LACK OF EVIDENCE AND DOUBLE-STANDARS?!"

And trust me... it goes on. Ends too... the relationship. I still see my friend though, as a friend.

 

I believe girls are more prone to being jelous about their boyfreinds...mainly becuase we know how completely *itchy girls can be when it comes to guys. Some would do anything to steal them away and some would do anything just for a one night stand...im not saying this is true for all girls but with some you can never be sure. For example, i was at a workcamp (like a habitat for humanities) and this girl was hooking up with a boy, nevertheless a girl with a boyfriend did everything in her power to make sure girl #1 did not get the boy...if that makes any sense.

To make my point short, girls are worried about whatever is going on inside other girls heads. Especially when there is a 'good guy' involved

 

@Abomination: That one has hardcoded double standards. She makes a very obvious logical error - the problem was not between the two girls but between you and her. Your ex being or not slut corresponded to her ex being or not a male slut. Her being or not a slut corresponded to you being or not a male slut and not your ex. This mistake being so apparent, she actually considered it the only logical way and assumed that she was right and you didn't understand her. It goes much farther than simply double standards. Her logic is inherently flawed beyond repair. Means no reasonable outcome is possible with her. She needs professional aid.

I knew a girl with a bit similar hardcoded double standards following from very similar flawed logic. She would ask questions, sometimes in a forcible way, and draw conclusions. Sometimes she would draw far-reaching conclusions from what you said, without asking any questions.

However, she hated being asked questions. She reacted like "You're pulling my tongue again.", "You're taking the easy path. Just questions.", "I'm not answering anything." etc even to simple questions that politeness dictates but one doesn't care about the answers. Like, I don't know, "how goes it?", "how are you". She went into nasty accusations when it came to questions that actually had some more meaning. Imagine asking anything related to her relations with men.

On the other hand, she didn't ask. She demanded answers. Sometimes those questions were much more personal than those she refused to answer and acted offended by asking.

First I thought that she didn't mean to be like that, that she was hurt or shy and it could be worked out. However, it became worse and worse. At some point she started making a show of boldly flirting with other men and kept saying nothing was between us. It wasn't my concern, I had no right even to ask etc etc. But imagine when *I* talked to a girl, hehe... Now that was a sight to behold. She would approach me and ask questions in her usual manner. Or if I didn't talk to her for longer than a day, same Now - if *I* asked why *she* didn't talk... You should see the curiosity when I started flirting with her friend... and what she tried to pull off when she thought we became a couple (which wasn't true), no matter she had a romance going.

She dragged that on. She wanted to play the game with me. She thought she could hold it. She was wrong. But that's a different story.

Guess some people are so centred on themselves that double standards are natural and seem obvious to them. She didn't see it as a logical flaw even though she was very skilled in logic. In fact, she was able to survive thelogical debate with me... up to a point. Still, despite huge intelligence and knowledge, she would get caught in that scheme. Even now I sometimes wonder what force was so strong as to prevail over the great mind she had. I guess she gave in to drives and desires at some point and embraced her new self, turning against anything that could limit her "freedom" and, focused on herself, not willing to grant the same freedom to others.

@Abomination: I guess your girl was somewhere on that path.

Oh damn, another long post no one will read.

@Harbourboy: I've passed such courses

[ August 12, 2004, 00:00: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

@chev 'your' girl sounds more arrogant than anything. How could you stand her presence let alone talk to her? There are times when being rude is probably the most polite thing you can do - at least you're being truthful.

 

Yep girls can be very weird when it comes to things like this.
I was with a girl who automatically bitched about every other girl around and thought they were all eyeing me up. The ex's I was friends with she automatically had a bad attitude with.
Anytime I wanted to go do something she clang to me and hated me either going for an early night when she wanted to stay up to watch TV, or have a late night because I was going to watch or do something and she wanted to go to bed. Couple this with a bad attitute towards my friends, never trying to find a job and expecting me to work my ass off for her to blow the lot and get me into a fair bit of debt (the best one was always eating a weeks worth of food in 3 days and complaining we didn't buy enough), never doing ANYTHING around the house and always making the house a bomb site after I had cleaned it up, you can imagine I was feeling more than a little used.
So when we split up we started getting on a little better, to the friends stage which mildly surprised me since she had exhibted such strong bunny boiler tendancies, even asking if I was looking for a new girlfriend, telling me she thought me and a certain girl were well suited and she thought it'd be great if me and that girl got together etc.
Funny thing is we did . But at the same time she got a new guy and started going on about how weird it was, and she didn't think she could handle it and other very worrying stuff, then she turned into the mother of all bunny boilers and started saying that me and this girl had been seeing each other behind her back, it wouldn't last, and telling this girl that I was very adulterous, lazy, never paid bills and so on.
I got it put down to one of several things;

1) I was meant to be jealous of her new guy and beg her to take me back.

2) The girl I was with was meant to turn round and tell me I was a useless boyfriend and I was meant to see my ex as the only girl who would have me, and run back to her bagging her to take me back.

3) I was meant to never get another girlfriend and be miserable the rest of my life and she was to be happy and I was meant to be so cut up over up I begged her to take me back.

Since we've split up she's (illegaly) obtained information from medical records about me and my girlfriend, and has continued a malicious rumour campaign.
Just goes to show that some women can really go overboard.

 

@Vermillion: That one girl seems like a kid. First, the control issues taken to a ridiculous extreme. Like a kid that will refuse a gift or demand something he neither needs nor wants just to make a decision.

I like the way in which you disassembled and analysed her intrigue, hehe... yeah, it's half the "fun" when one's splitting with someone. But you didn't make (or share) one conclusion: that *you* were the only guy that would have *her* and she wouldn't admit her mistakes (ie putting your patience to an end) but instead try to make *you* beg *her* to take you back. Again, biting more than she could chew, which means she learnt nothing from the previous experience. As you're the only guy that would have her and she doesn't learn, I bet she won't let go of you any soon. How about going to the prosecutor with her illegal actions?

@Abomination: There was no need to be untruthful at all as she jumped to conclusions easily. And I was painfully truthful in the very end when I answered several questions along the lines of compulsive honesty. Suffice to say the shock effect was quite rewarding But before she crossed the line, I just saw a girl who needed help in turning from the bad way.

 

@chev: What type of 'conclusions' are you talking about? Can you give some examples? I can think of one of the most sexist ones but still a prime example that often gets a few giggles... *ahem*

Girl: "Does this outfit/dress make me look fat?" (Yes/No answer required)
Boyfriend: 1 "No." 2. "Yes."
1/ Girl: "What? So you're saying I'm always fat?!"
2/ Girl: "So now I'm fat am I?!"

Catch 22 situation, never answer yes or no. Just say "I don't know."

 

@Chev Yep pretty much I think I was the only guy that'd put up with her, the guy she got with after me split from her because of her attitude too. As for going somewhere about the illegal activities? Well, I believe in karma, do good you get good back, do bad, you get bad back. Something will come round and give her the comeuppance.
Heh if it was more than jelousy and just relationships in general then you'd think I'd started writing a horror story

 

@Vermillion: Well, I believe life is the best judge of this world, but sometimes things just beg to be righted

@Abomination: What about asking questions?

You have two options:

1) ask => you're collecting information from her for a nefarious purpose and are generally invasive of her privacy

2) don't ask => if you don't want to know it, she can tell it to you safely Actually, refusing to listen might work even better

Now about her excusing yourself. Two options:

1) ask why => she doesn't have to explain anything to you, she will make no excuses, you're a possessive bastard

2) refuse to hear any excuses => she will feed them to you, you obviously need to hear them, and if you point out that she always says she never explains herself, she will say she isn't explaining herself at the moment but just telling things as they are or some such

What about "that mood?"

1) you approach and talk to her => you're stalking her

2) you don't do that => you impolite insensitive bastard

What about other girls?

1) stick to her => there's nothing between you, she will never be yours, you want to own her etc
2) take #1 seriously and start dating other girls => you have forgotten her so quickly, you veer around, she told you you would do that

Another funny thing was that if you send her a message every now and then, she would assume she were successful in keeping you at bay - instead of pondering the possibility that you actually didn't think about messaging her.

Oh well, she sensed cunning devices in just about everything (refusing to comment was the best way to convince her she was right in some wrong conclusion) and that was her doom.

 

Now I'm not one to bitch, but since this is all the most outrageous lies I have heard in my entire life I had to reply!

1. If someone had eyed him up then they would have been welcome to him!
2. The only thing he ever did was sleep, or go on the computer. Now both those things are fine but not to the extent that is all you do. You do have to see daylight occasionally.
3. I am still friends with several of his friends which cancels that one out.
4. Never finding a job? Could that be because I was looking after a baby completely by myself?
5. Working his ass off? In the two years I was with him he worked for about six months, and then got sacked.
6. ME getting HIM into debt? I'm still paying off the phone bill from him phoning phone sex lines!
7. The house was a bomb site after he'd cleaned it up? Well I don't know what he's taking but I'd like some of it, since he never cleaned up once in two years!

 

Damn. this alley IS dangerous hehe.

Back on topic:
i too feel that it has more to do with a person's individual insecurities than their upbringing. It also depends on the level of trust you are willing to extend to this person. i trusted my gf completely, she went to the beach with some friends and when she gets back, i get this apology that she kissed someone there. Now, I will not extend her the same trust that i did before. I still have enough faith in her honesty (hence, the admission), but certainly not her fidelity. my point is, whether justified or not (in my case, it's justified) I will now get jealous much more easily with this particular girl (and perhaps even those after her) because i'm no longer SURE that she wont cheat on me.

 

Apologies Taluntain but as kids say, I didn't start it

 

OK, now I wasn't aware of the whole story and whatever I write in response to someone's post is only as good as the information I get from there, so please don't take things personal and view my comments more like "if A is true then B must be true" rather than "yes, A is true and so B is true".

@Enagonios: Been there... I don't envy you. I've been there and don't want to go there again although I know I will. It sucks to feel the way it feels. Wonder what those people think? That they're single? That they deserve a break? That you will be a nice guy/girl and forgive whatever they do while they won't be bothered keeping their hands about themselves? Eh...

 

I always thought that the "jealousy thing" is more about lack of trust, for instance, insecure love. I always trusted my former girlfriend, I saw her several times talking to guys who are/were friends of her; one time, I saw her with a former boyfriend, she saw me in the distance that I saw her so she aproached a little bit more to him; so when we met, I didn't mention anything about that, she seemed to want that I say something about, so after a while she said: why you don't ask about what me and my ex? Because I trust you and I know/trust you didn't do anything wrong.
She said: -You don't love me enough...
- So how you would react to the same situation?
-I would go and stand to hear what you are talking about.
Enough to say that that started a stupid fight.

 

As I see it, she either felt guilty and wanted to confront it and be done with it, or she did it on purpose to spur some reaction. In any event she ended up shifting the blame on you (let's call things by their names) the usual way it's done.

For some obscure reason, women would do things that are not in line with fidelity and will blame you for not being jealous about that. Cold arrogant bastard as you are, of course. I'm very lenient towards such behaviour when the girl is tired or shaken beyond thinking straight, but otherwise I move on to the next one. Some things simply don't go. You really must love her if you're letting her get away with that, although I doubt she will understand.

It's only a speculation, but it seems to me that some women, if they are trusted the way you trust your girlfriend, will do something unfaithful to show you that "once yours always yours" isn't true, and destroy the trust. Ironically, once they have managed to destroy the trust, they will start complaining about you being a jealous bastard for not trusting them anymore and keeping a close eye. This scenario is giving me a very hard time whenever I get close with a girl and she starts behaving similarly to that.

Didn't you think more or less the same when it happened?

 

I reckon it'll be a lot easier on us guys if we just accept defeat and give up on trying to understand women. It just can't be done.

They always want something which they don't have, taking this to ridiculous extremes, for example, as mentioned above in Chev's post, they want you to be jealous, and at the same time not.

From my experience, I could only deduce that it is a very situational mindset of theirs, which changes a lot depending on the circumstances, so, in short, we need to be on our toes a lot around women, if we don't want to get into trouble.