Is God really upstairs?

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Lets have it straight out here:

Does God exist (in any form) or is it all a hoax and why?
No trinity tripe just straight foward (but not nessaceraly short) answers please.

 

I am at a loss. I may be able to figure out why there was a big bang. But I am in a deadlock when I try to figure out why there is any molecules in the universe at all. And down that philosophic lane why is there a universe. For what reason do we have this box we call universe. It all comes down to beliefs. And that's nothing more nore less than accept a god.

It gives no more answer because I can ask "why is there a god" but it pushes the explanations out in the supernatural and hence easier for me to accept. (or too hard to grasp, so I give up faster in my inner-debate)


PS. After watching a danish documentary rougly named "the domain of the spirits" I am more certain than ever that something is cooking beyond the normal limits of physics. A media (a person claiming to be in contact with spirits) from england, visited danish families who had haunted houses. spoooky documentary. Something similar must exsist in UK or US. or elsewhere in Europe

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited August 27, 2001).]

 

This is how i see it Nobleman my friend.

Stuff exists.
Pure and simple, we have no explanation for why it just does. The real reason for it all existing is hidden to us because our brains are far too primitive to work out why.

But we can't cope with that.
We have to have an explanation for everything. Look at science, we can tell you why it is that an animal migrates or hibernates, why the wind blows in that particular direction or even what existed thousands of years ago.
But ask us why any of it happens at all and we are stumped.
To answer this question we came up with the idea of God. Until we find out the scientific answers we use him as a part time solution. It's harsh but true.
But just because we have come up with this idea from our heads does not mean it is untrue. The fact is anything is possible and anything can exist. We are just too primitive too see it all.

 

Good to see that We utterly agrees.
Nice of You to rephrase my words into a better and more fluent english

 

ok ok i know how we got here.. they tell you all about it in Star Trek *shesh*

Some aliens wanted to continue their race so they left some of their dna... and viola... here we are!

 

I find Your lack of faith desturbing Kitiara

(pathetic of me as I use yet some other movie qoute)

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited August 27, 2001).]

 

yes God exist.... A worls, so complex and so beautiful, where all billions pieces make on perfect picture, can't be evoluted by accident.

 

Of course we are a product of billions and billions of "accidents" changing the DNA and making a specie more perfect than the others. Maybe some higher power gave some help here?

 

hmmmm 'a species more perfect' Why do people assume that we are so great and so there must have been an influence in our design. We are all we have - end of story. There is nothing to compare us to but that doesn't mean that we could not have turned out completely different. You can bet though that whatever we had tunred out to be people would still be sitting around saying 'we are the ultimate in design - there must be a god'.

The 'inteligence' argument along similiar lines is also misleading - 'we are the only inteligent species so God must have blessed us.' There is no proof that we are the only species to have developed the level of inteligence that we consider to be 'high.' Inteligence could just be another design elelment that random evolution developes given enough time. If you look at extict species that have been wiped out by world calamities you see designs repeating (reptiles that look like dolphins for example). So it is possible that inteligence as we know it has also previously been developed but wiped out by a calamity. Read the Science of Discworld for more on this (at least the parts written by the two academics):
http://www.sorcerers.net/Books/index_pratchett.php

Anyway, I'm not saying that there is or is not a god. I personally feel no need or inclination to believe in a god. I see that belief is a good thing for some people so I don't knock it but it is not for me.

What I don't like though is people using circular or non-factual arguments to 'prove' an existance. I am also not impressed with the 'oh we can't explain that with our curent understanding so there must be a god' type arguments. That's the line that people used to use when they worshipped volcanoes. Come on people we are supposed to be civilised. Or even worse - trying to use the bible as proof. Don't even get me started on the unreliability of that as a source of 'fact.' - how many translations, how long after the supposed event was the first version penned, how many people actucally understand the meaning of the words used today, how much was changed by translation scholars with a vested interest in what was said, etc, etc

Besides - didn't someone once say someting like 'proof denies faith and without faith God is nothing' I know Douglas Adams used this but I thought it was based on a theological source.

My final thought is how strange it is that so many people who are so religious just happen to have been lucky enough to have been born in a place that supports the (in their opinion) right god and the right religion. Or are you happy to tell me that there is no statistical significance in most people in western europe being Christian while most in arab countries are Islamic, etc, etc

Slappy goes back to his corner and shuts up.

 

To clarify a bit. WE are indeed not more PERFECT than many other races. We are INTELLIGENT.

Crocodiles are PERFECT too. SHARKS. RATS etc. Those creatures are equally perfect in their respective environment. some insects bodies are far more impressive than the human body. actually we can't be perfect since we are dying from numerous deceases. Furthermore we have evolved too fast for our social behaviour to addapt, resulting in wars and misery everywhere.

But I agree we do have the most impressive bodypart on earth. our brain. It makes us capable of one day to visit other planets. Amazing aye?

EDITED HERE: To SLappy.
Hi Slappy You old smoothy. Nice to see some activity again.

Douglas Adams wrote that phrase in a comedy book. The thought is appealing but simplified too much and hence it's wrong.
It IS possible to both "prove" that god exsist and then have "faith" in his devine works. IT is true That proof will never come from any more than written or spoken material unless god's reveals himself in an extremly obvious way.

Second: You write too fast, made my post come second to mollusken's post. made it look "CopyCat-ish"

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited August 27, 2001).]

 

I am not myself religious (anymore...) but I found religious life was the most comforting, beautiful thing I had experienced in my life and I often miss it. I think there are three kinds of religious faith:

1) People who believe in God because they have perceive God in some hard-to-describe way. These people are phenomenally lucky, in my opinion. Many years ago, I preached a sermon in a federal penitentiary on the subject of "pray for faith and it shall be given to you". Although this was one of the more well-attended church services this prison had experienced in some time, I now think, alas, that I was wrong as I have been unable to replace my lost faith. "Religion is like sausage... those who enjoy it should take great care never to see it being made."

2) People who believe in God because their parents told them it was so, and that the book (whatever book that might be) proves it. I think this is the kind of faith Slappy expresses discomfort with, above.

3) People who don't actually believe in God but like the order and stability that they believe a church brings to society. My grandfather fits into this category- his millions are being left to the Church of England despite his being a committed and bitter atheist. As a would-be heiress I'm sure you can imagine how I feel about this...

While I have the highest respect for the 1st category of faith, having had good experiences with it earlier in my life, I cannot condemn the second as "unscientific" as so many others seem to. I cannot prove to my own satisfaction that the world is round, nor that I evolved from other primates, because I don't have the educational background to do so. If fact, my own experience and common sense tell me flatly that these things are not true- they contradict my perceptions of the world. Yet I believe these things because those more learned than I have agreed upon them and written them in books. If I can blindly accept Darwinian evolution and the round earth based on what I have read in books and been told by my parents, how can I condemn those who hold theological beliefs on similar grounds?

[Edit: Nobleman, if you miss Slappy you should go visit him on his own board sometimes! We'd appreciate another Scrabble player and we're drumming up a good group for online Diplomacy too... ]

[This message has been edited by Sprite (edited August 27, 2001).]

 

Does God exist. The simple answer is YES. This is only true for thoes that believe and this topic doesn't have enough space or me enough time to convince anyone who does not believe yet. True belief must come from within.

 

Man are not to know the ways of God.
Then why the hell are u trying to tell us god is this and god is that? if u believe god is then he is. if u dont, then he issnt. there can be no proof.

 

I´d like to believe in god. But I don´t. I have no ideas of why we are here, how we are here and how everything began.
Too bad, I say.

 

My mom goes crazy when I say I don't believe in my religions. Believe me, if I believed in God, I would be best friends with some ppl who are really annoying. My dad really doesn't care, but he makes me go to church when I'm at my grandma's in summer. BORRRRINNNG.

 

Nice Point Shadow-goddess. You really hit the pick where it screams. Why does Church-visits A) have to be boring. B) be singing the same songs from the last 500 years C) listen to the same stories from the last 500 years.

All my experiences with church is doll and boring. Its their own fault if they don't peek young peoples' attention. How can we come to believe in god when we feel unhappy about going to church?
If we get peeked then the faith can grow from within our soul.

SOMETHING ALMOST COMPLETELY DIFFERENT

I have a question. Person A and Person B
both dies 90 years old.

Person A has always been a good person. He helps when help is needed. And never works evil on other people. Always a friend when You need him. But he died as a non christian.

Person B is an asshole. He hates people betrays and lies untill he turns 88. Then he has a true vision and starts to believe in god. And believes with whole his hearth.

Person B is the only one who comes to heaven right? My Question is. You can be a better person than a christian and still not come to heaven. Is this God's will? Where am I wrong in my line of thought.

 

Nice one Slappy, Thanks for getting this debate going mate!

The thing about church is that we have to find SOME way to talk to God. When man thought of God he could not cope with the thought of him sitting up there without being able to converse with him. We needed to converse with him because we need to know how to please him and how to get to Heaven.
So in true human instinctal fashion we invented the church. Huge buildings (some of them) to show our devotion to God.

The irony is that no one seemed to care about the thousands of people who have been killed building churches!

Now hundreds of years ago a sermon would have seemed like the highlight of the week due to the fact they lived in such bad conditions but now we have advanced. In true form the church does not. Lets face it, the church never does.

WHY?

Because with change comes discovery and new belief and this poses a threat to the church. Look at the reaction to Henry VIII when he wanted to divorce. The church does not change because now more than ever it does not want to be proven wrong.

Belief DOES come from the heart and i have it as i mentioned in my first message, but NOT from huge grey buildings which although very pretty waste time money and energy (and lives)
If you believe then God will take you to heaven even if you never pray at all. If God is so almighty he will sense your belief and talking to him will be needless.

 

Nobleman - the question isn't about how good Person A or B is. We have all "earned" damnation by committing even a single sin. It is God's will that his holiness be maintained, that none should sin. The fact that Person A was "good" isn't good enough. He/she would have to be perfect. That's why we need Grace.

That being said, I have a HUGE BONE TO PICK with the modern church. We have this wonderful message, but have kept it to ourselves and communicated it so poorly that the culture has been turned off!

Long story as to why I am not a practicing Cleric right now, but it hinges on this issue.

My purpose in life is to communicate the unchanging message of Grace to a changing culture. My goal is to start a church that uses video, new music, the Internet and other tools to communicate the Good News. The message and stories will be the same, the format will hopefully be compelling.

God Is Really There. He hasn't left, we have. My hope is that we can come back to him!

 

When I said 'we', I'm not so stupid I meant just humans. Of course I meant every living thing on this planet. Every creature living here right now is the most perfect thing evolution has produced. We are the only ones who have survived this far...

 

Hi Mathetais.

Grace You say. I can understand that part. But Still wouldn't person A be entitled to Grace because of his good motivations. Or is grace only given to those who are believers?
Person A needs something solid to believe. He can't just join a church to save his own neck in heaven. As You mentioned a few months ago. we cannot deceive God.

Second. I truly like Your initiative. I hope You will fare well in Your servance of God. Thumbs up for the ideas. Perhaps You can even convince Shadow-Goddess

PS. Sorry for all the Questions I ask

EDITED HERE: Dargorn I don't think the churches are a waste. Its what happens inside that bugs me. With a new generation of preachers, like Mathetais, things will hopefully change. many things takes sacrifice. If those who build the church, and died, were believers then they come to heaven. If they weren't they hadn't earned their "Grace".

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited August 27, 2001).]