Ideal skill progression in CRPGs?

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I have no idea why this question is important, but I'm intrigued by what SP members think.

What's your ideal skill progression style in CRPGs? Advancement with individual skills, skills which complement each other (skill synergies), or a skill tree?

 

Considering how almost every CRPG has a different skill system could you please give us an example - maybe your ideal skill progression?

 

Divine Divinity's skill progression was fantastic, and blew DnD's skill system out of the water. I'd go with that.

It had 98 or so skills, with 5 ranks of each, and each rank of it either improved it or modified the effect of the skill. You could even diversify the 3 classes, because characters could take skills from all 3 of them.

[ November 07, 2004, 23:07: Message edited by: Rednik ]

 

Does it mean Divine Divinity is not as dumb as its title? I can get it for three beers worth here, but the dumbness of the title sort of scares me away.

Ideal skill progression would be a logical system, with more attention being paid to consistency and realism than balance or political correctness. It should complement the class system well or replace it altogether. However, it shouldn't make stats practically useless like D&D 3E skills do.

I liked KotOR's Force Powers progression.

 

DivDiv is worth it IMO, but stay away from the expansion, it just plain sucks. I had a lot of fun playing Divine Divinity, due to the extreme amount of skill customization and the interesting storyline.

I had a thief character skilled in backstab(all five ranks), who could cast healing spells extremely well, had maxed out longsword skills, and could poison his weapons. Very fun skill system.

 

Nothing can beat Arcanum on skill progression.

In what other game can you effectively play a dwarven gun toteming explosive and electrical master.

 

Umm, I know I'm going to get sooo much flak for this but *wince* Dungeon Seige's skill dealie was pretty logical. You had to actually use your weapons in order to get skillful with them. That one thing that I don't really care for about D&D, is that you can get grand mastery in some weapon without ever actually picking it up. I mean, c'mon, reading only goes so far!

 

I just mean to add that the Fallout skill system is sublime. The two traits at the beginning followed by the three tagged skills is a great start. Then , every 3 levels, you get a perk. It is so open ended and incredibly deep, and is a great example of how to do a good skill system.

How not to do a great skill system: Morrowind.

 

Why not? I find it quite logical that you only become better at skills you either use frequently or are trained in. Whats more your base statistics (strength, agility, intelligence etc.) only increase when you use skills that in turn are governed by those abilities.

I agreed with the Fallout skill system (the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system) being very enjoyable but the only problem I have with it is not being able to predict something. You have 100% skill in small guns, agility of 8 and perception of 7 and are shooting a target 10 hexes away who is in the open with a current AC of 20. How does the player work out the chance to hit? It's mighty complex. Whereas D&D is simple (To hit + 1d20 - AC > 0 then HIT). What is the formula for Fallout? (Skill% + Perception x 5 - hexes x 5 - AC) x obsurity by cover (e.g. x0.25 if 75% of body is hidden)? I've got no idea how it works. But it does work. And thats only for a single-shot weapon. I haven't even started on targetted shots or burst fire.

I quite enjoyed the FFX skill progression (don't yell at me please!) it was very different and allowed interesting combinations while still presenting the 'suggested' path for your characters.

 

In Morrowind you just leave a rock on your keyboard overnight to increase you skill. Everything in that game is mighty boring.

 

Well obviously you could leave a rock on your keyboard, but you'd have to be pretty low to do that then call it a disadvantage of a game. If you think it's a crap thing: don't do it. Similar to cheese really.

We aren't talking about the game either Rednik We're talking about the Skill System

 

You know, I never thought about how dull the advancement system is in D&D until you brought this up. Final Fantasy 5 and 10 had some interesting systems worth mentioning. Ultima Underworld 1 (but not 2) had a system that was very appropriate for the game (praying at shrines using the mantras).

Might and Magic 9 had an addicting skill system that makes you want to go for power... too bad the game gets boring well before that point.

@Mystra - the way not to implement that skill system is like in Ultima 8. Keep swinging your club and nothing and soon your strength is maxed out!

 

I'd go with Fallout here as well. I dislike a skill system where you progress in what you do. It never really works the way it should, and it's everything but fun and playable. It always causes the problem of being forced to pick useless skills that only become good in the end and whatnot.

Normally I'm a fan of classes, as I hate the open design that usually makes gimping and min-maxing possible. In Fallout the only thing preventing SPECIAL from working out to its perfection was the way the game was designed, though. The game was very, very good mind you. But certain skills like explosives, traps and survival were not used the way they could have been. Otherwise that system was near-perfect. You really could become a brilliant scientist or a firearms expert early in the beginning of the game if you really wanted to. SPECIAL is one of the only systems I know that is able to allow the player an immense character customizability already in the beginning, without ruining the balance in the middle- or endgame.

 

Yes, exactly Foradasthar, the SPECIAL system rocks because of the immense customization that is available from the outset. However, Fallout 2 improved the whole use of Skills thing, and when you least expected it, skills like science and repair popped up, and the thief skills became really important at the end. I would say that Fallout 2 boasts a skill system that still has yet to be improved apon.

Abom, I would leave a rock on they keyboard is the best way to do it because improving a skill manually is incredibly boring.

 

Actually, all the negatives I hear about free systems and about the Morrowind system, have nothing to do with the system itself. It is always the player behaviour. Example: the rock thingy is not a necessity, it is a choice. I never did it and my skills kept improving without me putting any effort in it. Just don't put skills you will never use in your Major/Minor skill list. And the min/maxing of open systems is also a player choice. Nobody forces you to pg and if you want to rp, open systems leave much more possibilities.

Like you could have guessed, I am in favor of a system like in Morrowind. Note I said like, since I agree with most people that still no game has succeeded at making a really good implementation of such a system, but that doesn't mean the system itself is flawed, only the execution.

 

Although the idea of using skills to increase them is good in theory, the execution of it in Morrowind was god-awful, and instead of focusing on the few fun aspects, you had to constantly do all sorts of shi* like swim, hide and use your sword against crappy monsters like crabs to be able to level up. That just isn't the right way to do it.

 

@ Rednik:

I was talking about Fallout 2 there, actually. Over half of my characters there were scientists and repairers with a high charisma score. I absolutely loved playing the game with a pacifist that allowed the groupies to do the battling.

But trap and explosives skills were still useless. Simply because the game wasn't designed to let you use those skills as much as many of the others.

@ Meatdog:

I disagree. You could make a system that allowed you to do anything, but would be open to explotation and cheating. As many MMO developers have said, designing a game or a "system" itself isn't hard. It's the players who lack self-control and morals who make it so. Do you think BG2 would have lasted as long as it already has if it was a part of the "system" (or game) to let you choose your level from the beginning?

Besides, if it is possible for the player to just leave a rock on the keyboard to get experience, then there is no way you can blame that on him. If advancing in a skill is as simple as hacking one button all the time and nothing else, it is quite obviously flawed.

The ideal system would allow the player to do nearly anything. But it would never feel repetitive or boring. The advancement couldn't be overly slow or fast either, but would fit the player's personal preference. It would also contain the essential limitations to prevent exploits and "cheese", at least enough to protect the player from themselves.

 

@Foradhastar
The rock (this is turning into THE example to debate, nice find, Rednik) is maybe possible, but it is not necessary. I just don't see the point in any of this easy fast leveling as I never had problems leveling in a regular way, it went fast enough. There is only a problem when you actually need those levels in the game. Like I said, powergaming is a choice, and you can't blame a system for not forcing you into the hardcore roleplayer's role. There is no way you can force people to roleplay instead of powergame, hence that is no criterium to judge a system's worth. You should rate a system on what possibilities it opens towards RPers, not how well it punishes or limits PGers.

Of course I base this argumentation on single player games (which morrowind is) and I agree that it is unfeasable to give freedom in mmorpgs.

Actually, what made that system of Morrowind kind of broken is the fact you never needed sleep. That is why the rock thingy worked. They should just have added some measure of needing sleep and if you overexerted yourself, you would just pass out (with possibility of all kinds of nasty things happening while you're ko) just like a normal person.

Now on your first part, where do you disagree with me in that? I also blame the players, not the system.

@ Rednik
And why did you need to do all that leveling up? Since encounters were scaled, why did you need to level up faster than what you would do by just playing the game? Except if you wanted immediately to go to the most dangerous areas in the first few hours of gaming. And it also shows that you don't understand the equal need of good gear, just levels was not enough in Morrowind, as like in most good rpgs, you need a mix of good skills/levels and good gear.

 

I would like to agree on that S.P.E.C.I.A.L. is a great skill system, but so is Darklands, an old RPG about Germany, Austria, Poland, and Switzerland from 1993 IIRC. Great game, great system.