How to best go about multi-classing TNO? (Also, stats?)

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Yo.

Okay, I'm playing through PS:T again for the first time in, oh, about 2 years or so. This will be only my 2nd time around.

Last time I played as a straight-up fighter, but this time I'd like to play through as a fighter up until level 12 (to get the combat bonuses) then switch over to a mage.

My question is: When is the best time to talk to Mebbeth to become a mage? Can I do this at anytime, still gaining levels as a fighter, or do I have to wait till I hit level 12? Also, is it worth throwing in any levels of thief? And if so, how many would you recommend?

EDIT: I've also heard that just by having Dak'kon and Annah in your party you can switch between Mage, Fighter and Thief at any time. How does this work exactly? And does it mean that I can't use my fighter abilities while I'm a mage (etc.) or does the game treat me like a multi-class?

As for stats, last time I played through, I beefed TNO out like a fighter (high STR, DEX, and CON, and a decent CHA, because thats what I thought would give me better dialogue options). This time, at the behest of Falstaff (badass, he is) I'm starting off with my wisdom kicked all the way up to 18, about 14 in INT and 13 in CHA, and the rest dumped into DEX. I figure I can supplement my strength with Tattoos and Dak'kon's 2nd level strength spell for the first part of the game.

That brings me to another question, actually - how should I best allocate my stats every level? I know you get plenty of WIS boosts along the way through dialogue options, so I won't waste more than a level or two on WIS. Should I focus on STR or CON, or evenly distribute as I level up? Any thoughts / preferences here would be appreciated.

[ July 30, 2005, 21:16: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

 

The cool thing about multiclassing in PST is that you can switch back and forth at any time and as many times as you'd like. So there is no need to go all the way to level 12 single classed.

To switch to fighter or mage, talk to Dak'kon; to switch to thief talk to Annah. Also, any of the non-joinable NPCs that can train you can also switch you to the profession you want to become.

Given the way XP works in PST's version of the 2e rules, it seems to me the best thing is to play like you're a F/M/T, even if you can't use all the skills at the same time. And it costs less than half the XP to go from level 0 to 10 as a thief than it does to go from level 11 to 12 as a mage.

In fact, even if you want to play a pure class fighter, it makes sense to at least gain basic abilities as a mage or thief. Simply going through training quests will bump you up several levels. IIRC, you can become a 5th level thief simply through training alone, and as this is experience you couldn't gain as a fighter or mage, it's not like you're taking XPs from any other class.

And, as a bonus, you get one HP for every level up that's behind the class to first level up to that level. For example, if you're a 6th level fighter/6th level thief, and you advance to 7th level fighter, you will get 1-10 + Con bonus HPs. If you subsequently take a 7th thief level, you will get an additional HP. Thus, if you just do thief-only training up to level 5, you essentially gain 5 HPs for free (in addition, IIRC, to an increased lore).

And it's also fun to run around and backstab once in a while (put all your points into stealth).

As to the advantages/disadvantages of each class, consider what abilites you keep and what abilites you lose when switched to another class.

What you keep: 1) HPs (you're HPs remain constant when you switch to another class); 2) THAC0 and number of attacks (you use the best THAC0 and number of attacks of any of your classes, regardless of which class is active); 3) weapon specialization (your specialization points stay constant, though class weapon limitations are still in effect); and 4) (IIRC) lore.

What you lose: 1) ability to use class-based items or tattoos; 2) class specific abilities (for the mage, all spell-casting; for the thief, all thieving abilities).

The fighter has no class abilites, so none are lost when playing another class. Again, the only things you lose from your fighter levels when playing a mage or thief are the use of fighter-only items/tattoos, and the ability take advantage of the larger pool of weapons available to the fighter.

This makes the fighter the perfect backup class, as you keep your most critical fighter abilities, such as fighter THAC0, when playing a mage or thief. Thus, for HPs, if you want to go to level 12 or 13 as a fighter, make sure you always (or almost always) level up as a fighter first. For weapon specialization, if your first advancement to levels 7 and 12 were as a fighter, you can, for example, get grand mastery in small blades and keep it when playing as a mage or thief.

So, my favorite TNO ends up as a fighter 13/mage x/ thief 10. I would level up fighter first, followed by mage (to the same level), gaining thief levels whenever. Again, as you keep your fighter abilities in other classes, for all practical purposes this TNO doesn't switch between fighter, mage, and thief, but rather between fighter, fighter/mage, and fighter/thief. In fact, it's even becomes a bit annoying to have to play as a pure fighter, missing out on the additional skills.

I would max out small blades (as the two best weapons of the game can become any weapon you'd like, and small blades are usable by all classes). I would put all surplus points in fist weapons, as there are some very good ones early on, and you can use them as a thief. You should have enough specialization points to get grandmastery in both daggers and fists by the end.

Also, while I prefer taking level 7 and 12 first as a fighter to get grandmastery, there are also very good arguments for taking mage levels at 7 and 12 (but fighter levels for every other one, of course). The arguments for fighter specialization are 1) increased combat abilities and STR and CON, 2) more HPs, and 3) weapon grandmastery, while the arguments for mage specialization are 1) increased casting abilites and INT and Wis, 2) specialization tattoos (these tattoos are quite nice, and as I stop leveling in fighter after level 13, I can't use the fighter tattoos as a mage) and 3) while in Ravel's maze, you can summon extra help, get some extra goodies, gain a few more dialogues, and get a considerable XP bonus (but you might have had to somewhat cheesily rack up much more XP than necessary when facing Ravel to become a level 12 mage at this stage of the game).The stat increases balance themselves out, so mostly it's a matter of grandmastery vs. specialization tattoos and some bonus XP. Though I haven't played all the way through as a fighter/thief, probably the arguments are the same.

And then, why the 10 thief levels in the F13/Mx/Th10 TNO, especially since I finally end up playing as a F/M? Well, 1) because it costs very little XP, and some of it comes from extra quests that only thieves can access, 2) it means 10 extra HPs; and 3) a high level F/T is alot of fun, and is the ultimate melee character with massive backstab damage. Also, I suppose you do get a decent lore bonus.

As for abilities: I guess I try to go for maximizing conversation options, which I think means having a decent score in everything (though I don't think Con helps any dialogues; I tend to leave it low till the middle of the game). As great as Wis is in this game, I don't like starting with anything above 15. I might early on bump it up to 17 (and use the +2 Wis tattoo), as the 19 Wis gives a hefty enough XP bonus and covers pretty much all stat checks till the very end. But I think a natural Wis of 17 is more than enough, as there are so many dialogues in the game that boost Wis.

A good goal would be to get Str and Wis up to an equipment-modified 19 as soon as possible, and Dex and Con up to an equipment-modified 18 or so. You can leave Int a little behind and boost it with Cranium rat charms when you need to be really smart (i.e., for dialogues or for adding spells to your spellbook), while Cha can be quickly buffed with "Friends", minty candies, etc. I think a TNO with 18 Wis, 14 Int, and 13 Cha is perfectly fine; I just wouldn't add any additional points to Wis, Int, or Cha until you've really buffed your other stats as noted above. And you can find plenty of Wis, Int, and Cha bonuses during the game.

[/freakin long post!]

 

Bion, your answer is so exhaustive and thorough it's discouraging: there's little to add to it

I'll just give my stat-boosting technique: at character creation, raise Wis to 16, Int and Cha to 14, and spread the rest over the physical stats. I'd pour the extra stat points on level up into the physical stats as well. Put on a tatoo that gives +2 Wis, and if you pick every Wis-increasing dialog option you'll get it to 25 by the end game. You don't need an Int above 14 if you don't plan on using heavy mage abilities, and if you do then you're better off taking the Mage bonuses, which will raise it to 17 (and that's without counting the Mage tatoos). As Bion said Cha is easily increased with Friends, which you can have active during all dialogs anyway.

Even if you decided to specialize as a mage, you may still want to take several levels as a fighter. Because of the way the game hands out HP (the manual is incorrect, HP per level does depend on your current class) you might want to postpone leveling up as a mage until fighter 6. Then take mage levels all the way to 7 (to get mage bonus), then switch back to fighter until level 9. That way you maximize the benefits of the fighter's higher HP rolls. Then you can forget about fighter levels and stick to mage. This is the way I played the game.

If you decide to get the fighter bonuses, you can put in as many mage levels as you want, but remember to always keep the fighter levels ahead of the mage's (so you get more HP).

In either case you can liberally throw in thief levels, but I think the advantages of TNO being a thief aren't that great. As a mage you get some unique and powerful spells, but the thief has nothing to offer that Annah cannot already do. Still, as Bion suggested, doing the thief "quests" is always fun, and you can learn a few tricks (and gain XP) by talking to Annah as a thief.

 

Sorry, newbie question time. I am playing this through myself. The last time I played through this game I did it almost blind to everything, and didn't get full enjoyment out of it. This time, I want to become a mage.
Through reading this I nee to talk to a guy called 'Mebbeth', right? Where is this guy? Also, I already have 4 levels in fighter class, so will talking to this guy make a multi-class? Or will it transfer the 4 fighter levels into mage levels? How does it work?

Cheers.

 

@BA- you're not technically a multi-class; the multi-classing system in PST is unique. Basically, you have three completely separate XP point totals for the three classes you can become. You will only gain experience in the class in which you are currently active. The character record screen will show you as a single classed character of your current class (and won't show your levels in other classes). However, the game remembers your other classes, so if, say, you are a 4th level fighter who trains as a mage, you will be listed as a 1st level mage with 0 XP. However, you will retain some of your inactive skills (i.e., you won't lose HPs, you'll keep whatever weapon specialization points you have, and you fight with the highest THAC0 available to any of your classes, active or inactive). Thus, your 1st level mage with 4 inactive levels of fighter will still have the fighter's THAC0 and weapon specialization points (though he will only be allowed to use mage weapons, which is why if you want to play a mage with lots of fighter levels, make sure you put most of your specialization points in small blades!). Then, say, if you level your mage up to level 3 and then switch back to fighter, you will continue along exactly where you left off as a fighter.


spoiler....


Mebbeth is an old crone (not a guy!) living in one of the huts in ragpicker square. (you can also find dude hanging out on this map who will train you as a thief...)

 

Ok thanks for the detailed reply Bion.
Another quick question for you if I may. I can't seem to work out how to allocate specialisation points. I have 1 in fists and one in 'edged' and 3 'unused' points. I seem to remember that last time I played through I found people who trained me in certain weapons. This leads me to logically assume that there is some dude somewhere who can train me in small blades. Where might I find this guy?

Is it that weird guy who is rock hard but refuses to fight anyone? I can't remember where he is but I remember the character.

Cheers.

 

Sounds like you're around the beginning of the game; you won't run into the rock guy until later in the game (and there's a guy hanging out by the entrance to the lower ward who's better, as he can train you up to grandmastery).

Towards the beginning of the game you can find a mystic guy hanging out next to the flophouse in the hive looking for his prayer beads; solve his quest and he can train you up to 2 points.

Also, while any character can get 3 points, you need to have taken your 7th level first as a fighter to get 4 points, and then in addition take your 12th level first as a fighter to get 5 points (grandmastery). So, strategically, how you allocate points depends on how you plan to level up. If you plan to primarily be a mage, try to max out small blades.

 

Thanks Bion for that lengthy post - I appreciate the time you spent on it.

So far everything is working out great. Right now I just reached the lower ward, and thanks to my high WIS, all the extra dialogue options, and hitting every single optional quest, I'm already at level Fighter 8 / Mage 6 / Thief 5. Last time I played through, by the time I hit the lower ward I was only level 5 as a fighter. BIG difference. I never realized how many huge experience boosts you get just from dialgue alone.

It's funny, but I've discovered that I've missed well over HALF the content of this game just by playing as a typical fighter. HALF!!!

Also, I decided to spend my levels 7 and 12 as a fighter. I'm a very melee-oriented player, who doesn't like to rest all the time, so getting grand mastery and the STR and CON bonuses are more important to me than a few extra spells. I already have 4 stars in daggers/edged weapons and 2 in fists, with one each in hammers and axes (I just like 'em). Course I won't be using either after level 12, but who cares. I'm not going for a perfect powergame. I'm having a blast.

 

great, glad I could be of service

btw, who's your current posse?

 

Well, at the moment it's the only posse available: Morte (though he was just skull-napped), Dak'kon, and Annah. Like I said, I just barely arrived in the lower ward, so no one else is available until (if memory serves) Fall-from-Grace.

The group I plan on having is those 5, plus alternating between Nordom and Vhailor. Dak'kon, Morte and Annah will probably remain permenant members. Any suggestions there?

 

Nope, that sounds good. Make sure you talk to your NPCs throughout the game; at various points throughout, long strings of dialogue become available...

 

For the best in Mage power, go up to 6th level fighter, then switch to wizard until you get 7th level. Then go up to 9th level fighter, and switch back to wizard for the rest of the game. This maxxes out your HP (giving you 8D10 + 1D4), and gives you the specialization bonuses (and tattoos) from wizard. IIRC, one of the best uses of the specialization tattoos is to give Daakon a little magical kick; once he's been improved, put the Greater Might, Greater (Constitution), and greater wizard tattoo on him; he's scary at that point.

 

I know this isnt a powergaming game, but from reading this, it seems like the most powerful build for a mage would be to take levels like this:

ftr 6
mage 7
ftr 9
thf 10
mage12
ftr 13
mage X

This would maximize hit points (ftr to level 9, thf at level 10), while still allowing the special mage class bonuses at levels 7 & 12. The ftr then advances to level 13 for the extra 1/2 ApR, and you should have +++ in knife for the best mage weapon.

as for stats:

str 9
dex 13
con 9
int 15
wis 18
cha 11 (friends will help and i will try to get this to 13 too)
what do you think?

 

I don't think going to Thief 10 is really worth it, but since it takes so few XPs anyway (compared to leveling as a Mage) I guess you're not really losing anything on the long run.

On the other hand I really don't see why you'd bother going past Fighter 9. You're wasting a LOT of XP, and the only benefit you get is that extra half attack per round. The mage does gain weapon proficiencies, so you can easily get *** in Edged Weapons rather early.

If you really want to maximize XP, I'd just do this:
ftr 6
mage 7
ftr 9
thf 10
mage X

As for Stats, I'd put only 13 in INT. After the specialisation bonus and using the Tatoo of the Archmage (which you get at Mage 12) you can get your INT to 19, and that's without using any points at level-up. You can pour the points you save into STR and CON, which is always good.

 

Wow, interesting thread!

A Mage can get *** in proficiencies?

Since it's a fact that it's actually a good thing to die from time to time in this game, wouldn't you actually be better off not maximizing out your Fighter levels?

 

@Montresor: Nope we're not going to sue you, because you're correct
Fighter 7 then Mage 12 will actually grant you the Level 7 bonuses of Fighter and of Mage. Which, to be honest, are nowhere near as good as any of the Level 12 bonuses (these are wicked!)

@Klorox: Any class can get *** in proficiencies. The Fighter specialisations are the only thing that determines how high you can go in Mastery.

Speaking objectively, the Fighter specialisations are probably the best, since Stat increases are pretty much interchangeable (depending on which specialisation you get, you can adjust your stat point allocation so that things balance out). The only unique benefit you get from specilisations are the proficiencies. However, I personally find it a waste of time and XP to go to Fighter 12, simply because I enjoy playing as a Mage. YMMV, and this applies to this game more than any other I think.

 

Arrgh, Klorox, don't look, nothing to see here, you can powergame on your next runthrough!

I guess going up to Fighter 13 was my own preference, based on playing through once as a Fighter 9 / Mage x, with the mage specializations, and once as Fighter 13 / Mage x, with the fighter specializations. The F13/Mx build was far better in melee, due to THAC0 and the 5* (edged) specialization, and I enjoyed the playing style of shooting off a spell to soften up the opposition and then using melee to mop up. But it *is* a pain to level up as a fighter, so playing the F9/Mx is probably more fun (and also, taking the mage specialization levels is better at one point in terms of RPing and XP).