how can a loving God and evil co-exist?

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I have felt spiritually disconnected lately. I am having trouble coming to grips with the fact that I know God loves us, yet there is so much evil in the world.

A couple of weeks ago I met a woman who was raped at fourteen and had an abortion. Ten years later, she still cries from telling the story. I think what made her cry was not the fact she was raped, but the abortion. I am trying to understand God's will in her life. Did God intend to bring another life into the world? If so, why with so much pain? Who committed the more evil act: the rapist or the victim who chose to get an abortion? Am I doing something wrong by even trying to relate my morality to her situation?

Tonight I met a man who's son murdered his mother, the man's ex-wife. How could God allow something like this to happen? Where is God's will in this situation? What good or love can possibly come from this? The man lost a son and a woman he loved. The woman lost her life. The son lost...I can't even imagine all he's lost.

The worst part is, I have seen their faces and heard their stories, yet the dominant thoughts in my mind through-out the day are things like...does my hair look good?, I wonder if that girl likes me?, When am I gonna get laid?...petty ego-centric thoughts that dominate my life.

I am so incredibly small and petty. I am...a long list of "I" statements. I would like to leave my ego behind, yet it protects me from the reality that the world is sooooo full of evil.

I believe I have reached a point in my life where I am ready to lose myself to God and accept his will for me, yet I am scared as to what pain his will for me may include. Part of me would rather stare at myself in vain fascination rather than embrace the world, with all its ugly and dangerous faults. I think a lot of people are this way.

Has anyone else had a loss of faith? Or to be more accurate, wanted to have faith, yet was plagued by doubts and ego? Has anyone wanted to believe in God, yet was scared that they would be hurt if they let their guard down?

I really want to let go of myself and embrace the world and God instead. Has anyone else had a similar point in their lives?

 

Well, it really depends on which God you are talking about? There's God vs. Allah. Both have very different theologies.

I only know Christian (not Morman, Jehovah's Witness or anything) as I grew up in a Christian home...

The reason evil is allowed to exist is because Jesus wants you to beleive in him out of choice, not because he's proven it to you or because you have no other choice. Also, evil basically springs from this choice. When someone makes the choice to be evil, God is not usually going to try to counter that. He gave us the choice of free-will, meaning that it was us who brought evil into existance. God gave us free-will, and that is a major part of the christian faith. He's not about to revoke the choice he's given us. Basically, we have to sleep in the bed we've made.

 

Something that gave me some sort of an answer, is the comic Jack. It has one shot in it that says the following:

*Kid writes the following on a blackboard*

"Dear God,

Why don't you stop war, and kids killing kids and honger?

-Timmy Roberts"

*An angel comes by and writes an answer on the same blackboard*

"Dear Timmy Roberts,

Wht should I stop people from doing something, whent they are perfectly capable of stopping themselves?

-God"

My two cents

 

Try Zen first, it may help more.

 

Friend, I understand where your coming from here, having gone through such a period of disconnection myself. Not a religious one, as I never was, but a disconnection from this world around us.

There is no such thing as evil, it is a human misconception.

We cannot try to decide what is evil in an act, only try to learn from it what we can. Things may indeed be done in a more moral or a more responcible way, and things may indeed be learnt without pain, but if pain or hate is caused, then we must assume that it was unnavoidable, take from it what we can, and strive to improve upon ourselves the next time.

People can learn some very valuable things by going through death or pain, rape or murder. We cannot understand the touch of fire until we are burnt, and in the act of burning another we sear ourselves. A life lived in pain will only show the more strongly those things which are beautiful, and it is this very fire which is in itself beauty, for all actions are but a reflection of each other.

You must not fall into the trap of rejecting your ego, your pain, your fear, your own wrong-doings. These things must be accepted and embraced, it is only then that we may understand them. When this is all understood, your sense of pride, hate, vanity, desire, all these things become tempered with the knowledge of what they are and the wisdom of how, as a part of us, we no longer need to be controlled by them, as they spring from the same source as our reason and our love, and it is our choice how to express whichever one we choose.

It is the process of learning the good and the bad, and realising for ourselves how these are composed, that life is made of. To seperate our identiy with that of the whole that we may study every aspect of it, know not only the truth of things, but understand why that truth is how it is, and then to re-integrate ourselves into an aspect of that entire truth.

Know that allthough things may seem evil, in the end it is up to us to realise this and become a force of light in our own lives, a beacon for others to follow, and that in the end this is how it will be, that allthough pain and suffering abound amongst us now, that there is in truth only the Divine Will, which we are every part as much involved creating it as it is involved in creating us. Thus we may not accept the will of the Universe as simple fate, as we are ourselves creating that fate with every moment of our myriad of life and existence.

These may help.

'Lift thy head, O Lanoo; dost thou see one, or countless lights above thee, burning in the dark midnight sky?'
'I sense one Flame, O Gurudeva, I see countless undetached sparks shining it.'
'Thou sayest well. And now look around thee and into thyself. That light which burns inside thee, dost thou feel it different in anywise from the light that shines in thy Brother-man?'
'It is in no way different, though the prisoner is held in bondage by Karma, and though its outer garments delude the ignorant into saying, "Thy Soul and My Soul".'

The angels aspire to become men; a Perfect Man, a Man-God, is above all the angels.

 

Late-Nite Thinker, for what do you need faith?

 

This has been talked over many times in many topics. I remember spamming at least three with my musings.

So:

God is perfect and god is loving. God loves perfectly. God wants His people to love Him and God wants them to be so close to perfection as possible, so God wants His people to love Him so close to perfectly as possible. Therefore, He gives free will and choice. Where there is free will, some people will choose the easier way, will take a shortcut to achieve their goals. They will crave tangible things temporal and won't be bothered with abstract and remote things eternal. Some others will notice that loving and trusting people are deceived easily, which is profitable, or that honourable people wil not break some rules even if they're treated badly. Yet others will seek revenge and serve justice on their own. Their own justice. There will also be people who see enough evil go unpunished that they'll lose faith in any good. Cynical or just disheartened. Or desperate. From petty little evil do atrocious crimes, those people abandon God and do evil. Eventually, they will or will not align with God (again) out of their own choice. It's believed that only someone who condemns himself is condemned - he believes his wrongs can't be repaired, he himself can't be redeemed, there's no forgiveness possible for him. He rejects God's love totally and ultimately.

What a man wants love by force? Or by lack of choice? Would God? And well, is a massive intervention enough to awake even faith in people (for long), let alone love?

 

Sounds like you've had a dialogue with it. I'd say that any notion of god is manmade, and thus you can't say what it is he wants and what it is he doesn't want, you can only assume.

 

That's right, people need to come to these things on their own, else there is little point.

Edit: This was actually in responce to chevalier's post, but I agree here with Lokken as well. We can never truly understand any of this, only do our best.

 

By definition, you can't understand. You're not God, so you can't understand God. You never understand or know everything, or you would be God for yourself. You won't ever have proof, or you won't need to believe and have faith.

However, what I wrote is what can be derived from the Bible according to the laws of logic. Then you either accept the Bible or not. If you make different assumptions, you'll have different conclusions.

 

God is an all loving god who made us in his own image. Giving us the ability to reason and choose. All throughout the bible, it is told to us.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, refer to Matthew Chapter 13: 19-23 and Matthew Chapter 13:24-30.

That's how they justify it.

If there's an enemy of the concept of a monotheistic fundamentalist deity, I'm it.

Look not to the deities! The answer is here before you, in the strength of your hands, the swiftness of your wit and the keeness of your intellect.

 

all loving and the image of god doesn't match if humans are that image

 

Umm...Shura, Matthew 13:19-23 is the parable of the sower, not what you have mentioned.

Lokken, please explain.

John1:1, 1:3, 1:4, 1:14

 

I have not read this particular book, but I believe it unifies and reconciles the opposing concepts being discussed.

I am paraphrasing from memory so I do not quote this.

Look not for god within a house of stone or league of men, but within yourself, and each and every one of you.

I beleive it is called the gospel according to Saint Thomas, and was removed from the bible some time ago.

To my mind, there is no difference between the perfection of self, and the pursuit of this, and the pursuit of god.

When any holy book is studied, with the due understanding and experience, you realise they are all speaking of the same thing, it is only our perception of this that has differed, and the words which have changed over time can still be read the way they were always intended.

Thus again, I agree with each and every thing which has been said so far, by all memebers who have posted. To me there has been no contradiction, though I am sure some of you have intended it as such. All of these things are true. It is only your perspective which changes.

 

To me, God is man's way of coming to grips with what he doesn't understand. This fundamental assumption makes the nature of God unknowable and subject to a leap of faith. Once you make that leap, it's a matter of finding the set of rituals and practices (i.e., religion) that best fulfills your spiritual needs.

I'm always suspicious of someone who tries to interpret "God's will" for any entity other than him- or herself. It's up to each individual to find his own path to the Divine and to create a relationship with it that works in everyday life.

That's my way of copping out on your question, LNT. Part of your relationship with God is finding your own answer. I sincerely wish you luck.

Well-said, Manus. If more people in the world were willing to understnd that, there would be peace.

 

That is the parable I'm talking about.

The Xtian Deity justifies the co-existence of good and evil with the "everyone's gonna get theirs someday" attitude. This is in response to the initial point brought up by Late-Night-Thinker about the girl who was raped and whatever. Hence you cannot say "but He's teh l337est of all! Why did He allow this to happen?"

That parable points out that evil can happen now but everything's just gonna be accounted for later. Bah.

I really cannot be bothered to argue with theists since I always win anyway but I just thought that was worth pointing out. Anyway, you folks have fun praying to your 'Lord' and I'll walk my godless path.

One last point: any deity that claims to have complete dominion over humanity had better have human concepts applicable to he/she/it. Otherwise, you folks have just given your souls to an alien sovereign who 'moves in mysterious ways'.

 

Everyone will get what they deserve, that's why we have poetic justice.

 

Will get what they deserve from whom's point of view?


As for your request, I mean that if God is all loving, and the humans are created in his image, humans should be all loving.

This is a logically enforced statement, and something somewhere doesn't make sense in this. Personally I dont find humans all loving, and I really dont see why God should be either.

I agree that humans can be all loving, but I'm quite sure most aren't.

 

This is not really the best place to try and engage in this type of dicussion, but I do have one suggestion...read "Summa Theologica" by St. Thomas Aquinas. He brilliantly discusses the existence of God as proven striclty by the human experience (perfect for a raging anti-theist like Shura) as well as the nature of evil in our world for those who have some faith but waver (like Late Nite Thinker). The logic and reason used do not even support any particular creed or dogma, although he himself was Roman Catholic, his logic has been used by Protestants, Orthodox even Muslim and Hindu. There is Truth our there. Sometimes it is hard to find and even harder to understand, but it is there.