Extra monster spawns due to high party level

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Heya! Time for another observational post.

During the discussions about the dynamic experience calculations and their effect on "optimizing" the experience point spread across characters, the point of extra monster spawns due to high party average level was brought up. As per usual, no one had really paid THAT much attention to what actually happens, so it was time to do an actual test run to see the story unfold. Having played through the early chapters so many times before with ordinary parties, any extra monster spawns stick out like a sore thumb.

So I created a three person party, consisting of the usual suspects with Deep Gnome thief/mage tank, Deep Gnome Dreadmaster decoy/archer and a Human Bard/Sorcerer for a diplomat/archer and took it all the way to the Monastery without bringing in extras. Additionally, I used the "perfectly balanced" exp table so that lowbie monsters wouldn't stop giving me exp all of a sudden.

For a second reference, I used one of my previous playthroughs with a duo tank + diplomat combo that used a cheated, double exp for kills AND always some exp for kill exp table to get to super-high levels FAST.

Not too surprisingly, nothing out of the ordinary happens when you're still at or below level six. That's at least halfway through Shaengarne, even for the cheated exp table duo. In the actual battle for the bridge, I noticed a couple extra harpies (four instead of two) in the northern edge of the map, but the rest seemed just like usual. Extremely minor so far.

The area outside Horde Fortress has always been a pain - either you get (nearly) overwhelmed by the Worgen spawns from the drums or forfeit LARGE amounts of exp by destroying the drums in some sneaky way. However, the static monster spawns are largely unaltered. You can get another Winter Wolf to spawn in the upper left corner, meet an additional Hardened Ice Troll in the upper right corner and Gark (the Ogre guard) in the lower right corner gets up to three other ogres plus two trolls to accompany him if you're sufficiently high level, most likely eight or above. The trio only got an extra ogre and a troll with Gark and they were at level six or seven at the time.

Same story continues within the Horde Warrens. The large enemy camps remain pretty much intact, with the exception of the forced encounter upon entering the second map. There you'll meet a couple extra Orog guards standing close to your party if you get there at a high level - at least eight seems to be the cut-off point. Also, you can find another Otyugh in the cage with the Fire Beetles (even the trio got this) and the Ogre camp to the north of it gets another Ogre and/or Orc caster as reinforcement. All in all, extremely minor considering the HUGE warm body count in these areas.

Horde Fortress courtyard finally sees some modifications. The lone verbeeg just west from the entry point can get up to FOUR buddies, another FOUR extra archers a bit further to the west and anywhere between two to four (lost count) extra Orc Warriors at the top of the stairs all the way to the west. Additionally, you might find one or two extra bugbears and an extra Hardened Ice Troll in the northern edge. The trio didn't see half as many extras so I presume you need level eight or possibly even nine to see the full extent of it.

Inside the Horde Fortress main building, the only encounters I've seen modified are the first bugbears (four instead of two, even for the trio), the Orog barracks (one or two extras) and the Ogre Cooks (two instead of one).

The crash area in the beginning of Chapter Two is again rather static. You might see an extra werewolf or two, and I've a vague recollection that you might only meet two Fomorian giants in the far lower right corner (instead of four) if you're REALLY low level, ie. playing with a straight six-man party. Andora village doesn't really get all that many extra spawns either, and even if they do, they're low level.

The glacier map is the first map where there's a possibility of upgrading a monster into a higher CR variant. Sherincal, of course. However, level nine (as per my trio) wasn't enough to spawn any of the higher variants, while level fourteen (!!!) with the duo spawned her CR15 (instead of CR11) incarnation. Rest of the encounters are rather static, with maybe an extra Snow Troll or two in the far lower right corner and a couple Aurilite Postulants and/or Barbarian Warriors in the opening skirmish.

The Ice Temple interior is, yet again, surprisingly indifferent about your party's level. Apart from the rooms with Ice Trolls (upper level), Shadows and Talisman party (both lower level), I can't recall any significant extra spawns there. Also, due to the large patrol radius of many mobs in the lower level, it might sometimes SEEM like there's a lot more mobs but then you'll find many rooms completely void of mobs instead.

The Fell Wood as a whole is rather generous with extra spawns (up to six monsters instead of two in many places), and if you're so inclined, you can fight an unlimited amount of undead by deliberately going in circles. However, there's a catch involved: you'll see the largest spawns AFTER you've already passes the point of receiving zero exp for kills - level thirteen or above; the Restless Dead are CR5. So you'll need at least an extened exp award table to gain any benefits here.

The Cold Marsh map is a slaughterfest already as it is, but you can muster it up with several extra snow spiders and/or ettercaps in the far west, several Snow Trolls (including Shamans) in the two camps directly east and southeast from there. The amount of Barbarians rises constantly with higher levels as well, and instead of just two or three wyverns in the upper right corner, you can easily spawn a dozen of them. THIS, if anything, suggests that you should GET to the map with as high level as you possibly can, add any extra characters you might want upon entering and THEN clear it.

The Dragon cave maps will only net an extra White Wyrm (or two) for you to kill, so they're rather indifferent.

While the Duergar Outpost does not directly benefit all that much from a higher party level, it doesn't lose much from a lower level either. However, the MONSTERS in this area are both numerous and of low CR (most of them CR4), which suggests that in order to gain ANY exp worth mentioning, you must not exceed average level 11. This actually combines nicely with the suggested strategy given for the Cold Marshes map.

However, some of the grand theory gets foiled in the very next four maps. You'll meet significantly different amounts of Umber Hulks (CR7, River caves map 2) and White Wyrms (outside Monastery) depending on your party's level, although the kill exp difference between a high level party and one with one or several low-level newbies (fresh from Cold Marshes) is not to be underestimated either. However, there's a sizeable chunk of quest exp available in the Monastery which you'd rather see going to the characters you're boosting in levels instead of your fresh newbies that'll soar in levels fast enough with the kill exp available from clearing the Monastery, the Duergar outpost AND the following Underdark areas with the Iron Golems and hordes of Driders and all.

Having an exp table that at least extends the cut-off point for getting zero exp for kills for monsters far below your level bridges the awkward exp paradox between Cold Marshes and the Monastery to the point that it pays off to just push through with it until the quest exp from the Monastery is cashed in. Or, lacking that option (due to, say, wanting to stick to the rules of the original game), splitting the addition of new characters between the Cold Marsh and Monastery instead of adding everyone in either spot.

Rechet over and out.

 

Nice bit of research there.
I suspect that the amount of extra level-based spawns will increase in later maps, because chapters 5 and 6 are where the differences in average level can be the greatest..

I'm used to seeing a great deal more monster spawns in HoF as opposed to normal mode, and now it seems that party level is the only factor. I used to think that HoF mode automatically spawned more monsters

 

Interesting observations, Rechet. I don't recall ever seeing any code in the area BCS scripts that add extra monsters based on party XP, so this feature must strictly exist within the IWD2 code.

And, Coin, I see no reason that the play mode, normal or HOF, couldn't be an additional factor in this calculation.

 

While you're most likely technically correct, it doesn't really matter* anymore at that point.

Why, you ask? The passage between the completion of the Eight Chambers (and other quests at the Monastery) and clearing of Kuldahar main areas of undead is just such HUGE pile of warm bodies to turn into exp, while containing VERY little quest exp to spoil the fun, that you should already have brought in the rest of the party members to share the fun. Otherwise you'll be hard-pressed to get much, if any, kill exp during the early parts of Chapter Five with all the Yuan-Tis.

* = matter in the sense of powergaming - solo or duo parties, level-squatters or mulers need not apply. They have more pressing needs than scoring an extra spawn here and there, methinks.

---------- Added 0 hours, 21 minutes and 35 seconds later... ----------

Forgot the actual conclusion of these experiments...

It seems that while the amount of extra spawns has never been a selling point of any "gain more exp" scheme theorized so far, the utter insignificance of it hasn't been acknowledged either. You'll start seeing "more monsters to kill" only after you've passed the point of no longer receiving exp for kills, more or less.

Not only that, but in order to see any significant amounts of extra monsters, you will have suffered several area's worth of severe exp decay to get there. So this procedure will actually HURT your exp gains unless reasonable restraint is used and/or rather extreme discrepancies in party's experience point totals is desired.

Kinda suspected all of this, but it's nice to have actual proof backing it up.

 

Back on to the topic.

In search for the maximal experience point total in Normal mode discussed here, the idea of using extra spawns as leverage was brought up. Hence, the hand-wavy "you'll get some extra spawns" description just won't cut it any more.

Unsurprisingly, the actual breakpoints for getting more spawns per map are dependent on where the area is located on the story line. Here's a list of the most relevant areas between Chapter One and Chapter Four. I cheated the required exp, leveled up and walked into the areas invisible to confirm the spawns. To state the obvious, Chapters five and six are not relevant as anything but a full six member party to cash in on the big kills (mainly chapters two and four) is a HUGE experience point loss.

Contrary to the statements and so-called "observations" above, the extra spawns aren't really concentrated into any single packs (with a few exceptions noted below), but rather you get +1 or +2 mobs in several packs all over the map, making it rather hard to notice unless specifically counted for. In some rare cases, you get a monster upgrade instead, such as a Malarite High Priest instead of just plain Malarite.

AR2100 Highland Pass
Minimum spawn: Average party level 5 or less
Medium spawn: APL 6-8
Max spawn: APL 9+
Type of extra mobs: Snake, Verbeeg, Harpy, Wererat, Werebadger, Spider

AR2101 Shaengarne Dam
Min: APL up to 5
Med: APL 6-8
Max: APL 9+
Type of extra mobs: Malarites with upgrades, cats with upgrades

AR2102 Shaengarne Bridge
Min: APL up to 5
Med: APL 6-8
Max: APL 9+
Type of extra mobs: Orc Elites, Harpy, two Mages (!) at APL 9.

AR3000 Horde Fortress outside
Min: APL up to 4 (lower than prior, what is the point with that??)
Med: APL 5-6
Max: APL 7+
Type of extra mobs: Just about everything, but especially Trolls, casters and other high CR mobs, including a fourth Goblin Worg Rider spawn from drum alerts.

AR3001 Goblin Warrens I
Min: Not tested (likely 4 or less, irrelevant anyways)
Med: APL up to 6
Max: APL 7+
Type of extra mobs: Everything, especially casters and other high CR mobs.

AR3002 Goblin Warrens II
Min: Not tested (likely 4 or less, irrelevant anyways)
Med: APL up to 6
Max: APL 7+
Type of extra mobs: Everything, especially casters and other high CR mobs.

AR3100 Horde Fortress Courtyard
Min: Not tested (likely 5 or less, irrelevant anyways)
Med: APL up to 7
Max: APL 8+
Type of extra mobs: HUGE amounts of everything, such as 28 instead of just 9 Orc Elite Archers, 6 instead of just 2 Bugbears.. You get the idea.

AR3101 Horde Fortress inside
Med: APL up to 7
Max: APL 8+
Type of extra mobs: Bugbear, Orog, Orc Shaman.

AR4000 Andora
Min: APL up to 8 (it's likely that there is a lower breakpoint at 6, not tested)
Med: APL 9-10
Max: APL 11+
Type of extra mobs: Giants (!), Aurilites, Werewolf, Frost Spider. Illium (and supposedly Odea as well) upgrade from CR4 to CR6 and finally CR8.

AR4100 Ice Temple outside
Min: APL up to 9
Med: APL 10-11
Max: APL 12+
Type of extra mobs: Everything BUT trolls, remorhaz and golems. Sherincal goes from CR11 to CR13 (APL 10+) to CR15 (APL 12+).

AR4101 Ice Temple lvl 1
Min: APL up to 9
Med: APL 10-11
Max: APL 12+
Type of extra mobs: Aurilites (especially Frosttouch), Winter Wolf (many), Barbarian Shaman.

AR4102 Ice Temple lvl 2
Min: APL up to 9
Med: APL 10-11
Max: APL 12+
Type of extra mobs: Aurilites, Winter Wolf (many), Necromancers, Soarsmen, Shadows

AR5000 Wandering Village
Min: APL up to 10
Med: APL 11-12
Max: APL 13+
Type of extra mobs: Wolves (many), Barbarian Warrior.

AR5001 Limha's hut
Min: APL up to 10
Med: APL 11-12
Max: APL 13+
Type of extra mobs: Trolls (many), Will'o'wisp, Barbarians, Wolves

AR50xx-50xx Fell Wood areas
Min: APL up to 10
Med: APL 11-12
Max: APL 13+
Type of extra mobs: Undead mostly.

AR5015 Dark Treant clearing
Min: APL up to 10
Med: APL 11-12
Max: APL 13+
Type of extra mobs: Treants.

AR5004 Cold Marsh
Min: APL up to 11
Med: APL 12
Max: APL 13+
Type of extra mobs: Huge amounts of Frost Spiders (tripled between lowest and highest), Ettercap and Barbarians.

AR5005/AR5100 Dragon Cave
Med: APL up to 12
Max: APL 13+
Type of extra mobs: White Wyrm

AR5101 Hook Horror Cave
Min: APL up to 11
Med: APL 12-13
Max: APL 14+
Type of extra mobs: Hook Horrors with upgrades, Ice Troll, Ochre Jelly, everything in Duergar fortress (many, but all low CR)

AR5102 Umber Hulk Cave
Min: APL up to 11
Med: APL 12-13
Max: APL 14+
Type of extra mobs: Everything, almost double amount of Umber Hulk.

AR5200 Monastery Outside
Min: APL up to 12
Med: APL 13-14
Max: APL 15+
Type of extra mobs: Everything in large amounts, but just two packs total.

AR5203 Black Raven Tomb
Min: APL up to 12
Med: APL 13-14
Max: APL 15+
Type of extra mobs: A few duergar, single pack.

AR5300 Underdark
Min: APL up to 12
Med: APL 13-14
Max: APL 15+
Type of extra mobs: Drow, Myconids, Sword Spiders, Driders

AR5301 Viciscamera Cave
Min: APL up to 12
Max: APL 13+ (Couldn't see a difference upwards even with APL 20?)
Type of extra mobs: Driders (from about 40 to 60 total)

AR5302 Mind Flayer Citadel
Min: APL up to 12
Med: APL 13-14
Max: APL 15+
Type of extra mobs: Thralls of all kind, all of it low CR.

AR5303 Air ship to Kuldahar
Min: APL up to 12
Med: APL 13-14
Max: APL 15+
Type of extra mobs: Many Earth Elementals and Harpies (almost double).

You pretty much need to play solo to be able to hit the topmost spawns for mostly anything from Chapter Two and onwards, but doing that WILL cost about 40k kill exp in the first two chapters alone. A duo SHOULD be able to keep up with the middle level spawns without all too much spilled kill exp all the way to the Monastery, but there's actually VERY few high CR extra spawns anywhere after Chapter Two so a point could be made for settling for minimum spawns with considerably lower APL. Sounds exactly like a thing to playtest!

Rechet over and out.. For now.