Dual vs multi (not flogging a dead horse, I promise!)

Remove all ads!

I know the ole multi vs dual debate is in the favor of the multi's favor because of HLAs. My question is, is this the only factor? Would there be a noticable thaco difference in, lets say, a 13berserker/mage vs a f/m with the same amount of XP? I'm asking because I'm playing IA, which introduces boots that grant improved haste, making GWW kinda obselete. Assuming the dual class has grandmastery (with true GM patch), has the tables turned? Thanks in advance for any opinions/thaco crunching!

[ October 12, 2006, 16:55: Message edited by: Mongerman ]

 

THAC0 wise, MC will have the best THACO in the long run, unless you dual-class into fighter (which is not a common thing, people generally dual from fighter kits to something else, it is much more efficient.) It is because fighter MCs develop their fighting skills rapidly as well.

What's more, MC fighters will have fighter HLAs such as Critical Strike, Smite, GWW etc. which will make number of attacks and THAC0 obsolete.

As a rule, DC from fighter to mage or cleric characters are better spell-casters, with better fighting skills than single class casters. MC ones are better, more balanced fighters than DC ones since they develop their fighting skills as well.

If you want to reach highest levels of spell-casting fast, with some bonus to combat skills (better weapon selection, GM, more HP and slightly better THAC0 with more attacks/round) go DC. You will be superiour in casting than MC in the short run, and your combat skills will be superiour than single class caster.

If you can live without lvl 9 mage spells and true dweomors, go MC, their combat prowess will be superiour than the DC.

It is interesting that, with enough high XP, MC characters can be good casters as well.

 

But is the difference is Thaco a big hit? Such that it will affect the character's ability to hit creatures in TOB? Like I said, with permanent impr haste GWW is obselete, and since that is the best HLA, and since dual class berserker/mage obviously have the edge in spells, the only edge a multi class fighter/mage has is his thaco. I'm wondering if the diff is thaco is such a big advantage.

For example, unless I'm mistaken the lowest thaco for monsters is -12 (demogorgon). That being said, as long as a berserker/mage can reach -10, he will hit most of the time. Thus

Dual wins in hitpoints
Dual wins in spellcasting
dual and multi are equal if we consider GWW.

That being said, I'll gave to thank IA again for giving a new lease of life to the game!

[ October 12, 2006, 17:56: Message edited by: Mongerman ]

 

It completely depends on the level. Fighters have their THAC0 improved by 1 point for every level up up to level 20. Starting at level 21, you no longer get the bonus to THACO, but still get the hitpoint and HLA increase.

So, it really depends on what you're comparing. A DC F13/M14 will have the exact same THACO (assuming the same proficiencies and weapons) as a MC F13/XXX. From that point onward, the MC will continue to improve, and if you gain enough experience, you could conceivably have a MC F20/XXX. Since the DC will no longer be increasing his fighters levels, his THAC0 will remain the same from the time he reactivates his fighter levels until the end of the game. By late ToB, a MC fighter may have a THAC0 7 points better than the DC.

As to whether or not that makes a difference, it's hard to say without knowing for sure what weapons you're using, but I'd say generally no. For a few really difficult bosses the MC may hit slightly more frequently, but with magic weapons, grand mastery and other means of improving THAC0, I doubt there's a noticable difference. The only reason I favor MC is for two pools of HLAs - it's not because I think the DC is hugely inferior in melee combat.

In conclusion, I offer the same advice as was mentioned above. If the goal is to make a spellcaster who can fight when necessary, you're better off going with the DC. If you'd rather to improve with both fighting and magic, and get steadily better as both a fighter and mage throughout the game (at the cost of taking a lot longer to get the highest level spells, and quite possibly never getting level 9 spells at all) MC is the way to go.

 

As you say, permanent improved haste does make Greater Whirlwind more or less redundant. But combine improved haste with critical strike and you have 7 attacks per round each of which will hit and cause double damage. So the fighter HLAs still provide a big advantage to the MC.

 

With gauntlets of extra spec, thats 8 attacks per round. And you are getting crit strike at the cost of 2 extra lvl 9 spells, and 3 (i think ) lvl 8 spells. And I think only dragons dont wear helmuts

 

The boots don't change anything, you could cast a 20 rounds lasting "improved haste" before.
My dualwielding kensai21/mage22 with kundane in his left hand never used the GWW feat although he selected it. (Should have choosen a more useful feat instead.)
But true GM changes a lot.



Another advantadge of the multiclass is that you need 17 fighter levels for the best saving throws and you can even take the superior gnome race.
You also don't play a crippled character for most of the game.

For the role as party mage both builds are crap. They are too many levels behind a pure or fighter9/mage.
For the fighter role only the multiclass qualifies. The dualclass won't be able to fight properly during his long dualing period.

 

1- With a multi-class F/M you will have a weak mage. You will never cast 9th level spells (at least not till the end of TOB).

2- Unlike a multi-class Fighter/Thief, a multi-class Fighter/Mage can never truly benefit of two polls of HLAs, because most of mage HLAs require level 18 (in Mage class) to be even choosable (let alone usable).

3- Enrage ability is also a big advantage.

Hence, in general, a dual-class Berserker-Mage is Way better than a MC Fighter/Mage, IMO.

 

I also think it depends on what you are doing with the character. MC characters playing through a heavily modded game with more than enough kill and quest EXP to max out both classes will hold certain advantages over a DC character that is part of a party.

For solo in a heavily modded game, such as my F/M/T playing through BGT with TDD installed, is constantly gaining in offensive power. Huge attack bonuses, great defensive and AOE spells, stealth and backstab with magically long swords.

DC characters will win out when it comes to HP because MC characters only roll the lowest hit die for each time a class gains a level. My F6/M5/T6 is only has about 50 HP's. That's low even for a thief. But, he can more than hold his own with the proper spells in place and through (fun!) hit and run tactics.

To conclude, it depends on your game for what you want. Power gameing would go to DC and RPing would go to MC.

 

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm more for a melee character who can buff himself, so I guess multi is more suitable then. But i was wondering whether the loss of high level spells is worth it, esp timestop etc etc