Dragon Age Forum News (Sep. 14, 05)

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Here are today's Dragon Age forum highlights, taken from the Dragon Age Official Forum. Please take into account that these are only single parts of various threads and should not be taken out of context. Bear in mind also that the posts presented here are copied as-is, and that any bad spelling and grammar does not get corrected on our end.

David Gaider, Lead Writer

Extendable NPCs / woes of a NWN town builder

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DA has nothing remotely pertaining to what I'm talking about? Then I feel sorry for the BioWarians that are going to be sorting through billions of lines of redundant monster/NPC code.

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What I said is that we have no idea whether it will. Oh, I agree that it probably will... obviously there has to be some handling of templates when it comes to NPC's... but you're talking about something that's going to come way down the line that we have only a vague idea how we're going to deal with just now.

More robust NPC templates? Okay, great. We'll keep that in mind. Not even an issue at the moment, though.

But keep in mind as well that while DA will have some kind of toolset, that isn't the point of nor the focus of the project... whereas that is the case with NWN2, hence my suggestion. If the NPC template system for DA, whatever it may be, isn't very user friendly that's not apt to be a big concern... for this project, versatility and power will always take precedence over accessibility.

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actually they only need the toolset to put everything together in the end. they can work on the independant parts without one. the level design, character design can be made in MAX or whatever 3d program they will be using. stories and dialogues can be made in spread sheets. so it doesn't have to exist one yet. but there is certainly main part of the code written already. they still have plenty of time to get it working.

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This is exactly the case. At some point a final toolset will need to be provided to us so we can start implementing everything in the format it will end up in... but until then we can prototype the design elements elsewhere.

Religion of TheDAS

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Ever notice how sometimes, if something gets repeated often enough, people "know" it's true, even when it isn't? Contrary to what you and some other people seem to believe meeting gods is not an everyday experience even in the Forgotten Realms. The vast majority of people in the FR have not and will not ever see a god, so the idea that faith is unnecessary in the FR is obviously wrong.

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I'll have to disagree with you there. As others have pointed out, it's an accepted fact in the FR world that gods exist and have a measurable influence in the world around them. Oh, I'm sure that amongst the unwashed masses any such knowledge would be mixed up with ignorance and superstition, but those same masses would receive their instruction from the Powers That Be... and those Powers That Be would have a very good idea exactly how such things work.

The Time of Troubles is a recent thing in the FR, after all... the gods literally walked the earth. They grant spells. "Divine" power is a real, measurable thing that makes such notions as atheism absurd.

Ignoring the problems with the setting, though, the issue I have personally is much more with how such a setup affects the players. As soon as the D&D gods were given stats and the planes were laid bare, any element of mystery that is needed for actual faith was destroyed.

And it is needed, whether you think that's a condescending attitude towards "people of faith" or not. I'm not going to get into an argument about the difference between faith as a concept and "faith" as dogmatic belief... I think it should be pretty self-evident. But that's simply my view on the subject and I'll leave it at that.

Vampires...

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I would expect Vampires are classed alongside things like Liches and Werewolves and other things with "powahz", that have been specifically stated will not be in the game.

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Actually, what I said was that anything with "powahz" couldn't be played... not that it didn't exist. I think that's a pretty significant distinction.

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But wasn't there an undead thread where you said something to the effect of questioning what 'undead' really are. Furthermore going on to state that there were plenty of more interesting enemies to utilize? I could be wrong here, but I remember an Undead thread that seemed to make it look to be no undead in game...

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Hmm. I remember saying that we didn't have liches... and while I remember the thread you're talking about, I don't recall exactly what was said in it. I'm pretty sure I never said that we didn't have any undead in DA, though.

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I assume the undead in general won't be acknowledged (or at least heavily debated in-game) as there existence may validate the idea of souls and an after-life, and we already know that faith in DA is well, like actual faith.

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And that's assuming that undead need necessarily have something to do with the afterlife, as opposed to animated corpses. Since DA is going to have magic, there's going to have to be a dilineation between the supernatural and the divine. Some things will be "understood" to be one or the other.

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As for Holmes's comment, I assume he's talking about how in a lot of vampire stories the vamps get the smack down when the hero gets his or her hands on a bible/holy water/crucifix/a gravy stain that if you squint a bit, might look like Jesus, which again would kind of devalue faith.

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Yes, indeed... if there were some type of vampire in DA there would be no equivalent of the holy smack down. Any smacking down would strictly need to be of the non-divine variety.

Is there Adult Content in DA?

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I don't know if I like Japanese games anymore... For some reason the graphics, playstyle and storylines just don't do it for me anymore.

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You know, I've felt similarly myself. I really liked Final Fantasy VII, and it was one of the first console RPG's that I found I enjoyed.

Since then, however, it seems that Japanese console RPG's have become far more about the cutscenes than about the gameplay. I recently played a console game called "Star Ocean" which was recommended to me, and I was amazed to discover that the entire game was essentially a string of long cutscenes broken up by fights. I wasn't even given any choices... the character I was supposedly playing would make major story decisions on his own and otherwise progress through this plot, and the only time I took control was to guide the party through the world, fighting monsters and trying to find the next cutscene.
I mentioned this issue to the friend who recommended the game to me, and he seemed puzzled by my response. The story was excellent, he said, didn't I appreciate it? As far as he was concerned, Japanese RPG's had stories that were way beyond anything western-style RPG's came up with. I said sure, maybe (if one likes the sort of angsty teen drama that is prevalent in Japanese RPG's, I guess, but that's just taste) but that's what you get when you have a completely predefined protaganist. And it didn't even seem to be much of a game to me... I was reading a book, more or less, and my lack of involvement with the decisions made me entirely disinterested. It was an adventure game with stats and levels, and I wanted an RPG. One that had decisions.

He doesn't need that. He just wants a good story, and if he gets to make a major decision or two it's a bonus. I, meanwhile, need a game where I determine my own fate. I know I'm not playing ME, and in a computer game freedom is a bit of an illusion anyhow, but I want that illusion. When it's done well, it keeps me interested because I'm the one driving the action. Add that to a mature storyline that recognizes that not everyone who plays these games is fifteen years old and still giggles at the sight of a boobie and I'm happy as a clam.

Is there anything left to discuss?
Brenon is such an instigator.

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if you take that literly it means two of them. some is more then one and some is less then all. since DA is going to feature massive battles i assume riding will be investigated and probably cloaks aswell. do that mean we don't get a Z-axis?

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We already said that there likely wouldn't be a z-axis (although that term is often mis-used). Be that as it may, all three things on that list are currently under investigation. Which isn't saying much other than, at the moment, they're not ruled out.

Jot Down Your Minor Ideas Here.

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my little suggestion that I have always asked bioware for and never get.

Throwable weapons. Spears etc. Would like to be able to use a spear as both melee weapon and ranged.

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I wouldn't mind seeing throwable spears, either. The problem there is the same as it is with any other weapon type that requires unique rules and/or animations (like, say, whips or mauls) in that it ends up being a fair amount of custom work for limited benefit.

While we could always end up doing the work anyway and putting it in, when we inevitably end up weighing features and making decisions on whether to implement one thing at the expense of something else, such "limited benefit" features get pared down rather quickly. God forbid that we ever end up with just "sword" and "bow" using that philosophy... some fun stuff has to make it in lest it become too generic... but some stuff is just plain unlikely.

Spears have the added disadvantage, I'm afraid, of not even being particularly sexy (unlike again, say, a whip). That may just be my lone opinion, though.

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Indeed. In Jade Empire, for example, we got around that problem by including ambient crowd objects that took up as little memory as possible. Peppering the crowd areas with actual models with collision and tags and little dialogues helped to make the highly populated areas like the Imperial City look and feel more realistic.

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Cool, though I seem to remember the PC could walk literally through the people in the crowd. Was that a resource saving thing, or do crowds of solid people make it annoying to try walking around? The crowds in the Imperial city, in particular, were a nice touch. As were the ambient monkeys. More computer games should have those.

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The fact that the "crowd" figures could be walked through was what made them possible. When you have a lot of models on-screen and the computer is calculating pathing, AI and collision for each one that's where you end up with massive slow-down. So making them, in effect, insubstantial means that you can include that many more of them.

We'll likely have a few more options with DA mostly because the engine involved will be more advanced, but crowd/army scenes are definitely something we have to deal with insofar as resource issues go.

Brenon Holmes, Programmer

Vampires...
What is the definition of a vampire? What are it's origins? Think on that for a bit and you'll probably have your answer.

Is there anything left to discuss?

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Of course there is....

z-axis
riding
cloaks

I dont think these have been covered.

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Some of these are currently under investigation.

More: Hey... I'm just saying...

Stanley Woo, QA Ninja

Is there Adult Content in DA?
Let's keep the real-world violence and sociopolitical commentary out of the discussion, please. In general, the more "realism" you have in a game, the less fun it becomes. Take a look at something as simple as your equipment. Weapons and armour needs to be maintained, food goes bad, adequate drinking water must be obtained, magic items are unlikely to be understood by anyone but a sage, and coinage actually has mass.

How much fun would a game be if the player was forced to maintain his own weapons and armour, find his own food and water, ignore his magical items until he got to a major learning centre, or drop all of his equipment just to hold onto all of his coins?

Heck, how much fun would it be to have to go to the bathroom every once in a while, or have a character's movement or attack speed reduced for most of the game while he heals? Or have a chance of death whenever a doctor treats him?

The main thing about RPGs is that we shouldn't allow the rules to get in the way of fun, because the fun is the most important part of the game and why people will play it and replay it and tell their friends to play it.

It's not fun for players to manually maintain their own equipment? Cut it, or have an easier way of doing it, like World of Warcraft's "fix all equipment" button on certain vendors.

It's the same way with adult content. A warlord would send an entire army to stop a rampaging group of adventurers, ensuring their deaths? Not fun? Let's have the warlord be really ***y and send out only small groups at a time, saving his coolest and deadliest lieutenants for last. Rape, torture, eviscerations, and baby-killing a little too realistic to be fun? Cut it, or simply imply that it happens off-screen and show the characters' reactions to it.

More: Hee hee, Dave said "boobie."

I've certainly enjoyed watching people play JRPGs (my friends are big fans), but I haven't been able to play them for any length of time myself. I tries Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and X; Chrono Cross; Xenogears; and Wild Arms 3, but I could never get around the extremely cinematic feel to the game. i felt more that I was watching the game and not playing it. Xenogears I, for example, has a bijillion-hour cutscene before you even get control, and seemingly more jillion-hour cutscenes and dialogues between every battle. Frankly, I found it boring.

Contrast this with something like Baldur's Gate, where the player has complete control of his personalized, customized character from the start of the prologue! More control over one's character equals more emotional attachment to his actions in the story. This is how western RPGs seem to do it, while JRPGs use cinematics and visual style to do the same thing.

Oh well, to each his own.

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Xenogears I, for example, has a bijillion-hour cutscene before you even get control, and seemingly more jillion-hour cutscenes and dialogues between every battle. Frankly, I found it boring.

You're talking about Xenosaga episode 1, right? I'm almost certain you are. You couldn't possibly mistake Xenogears for a boring game...because you would immediately become my mortal nemesis then, and I'm not sure that would be a very tenable position for me on this board.

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Yes, I'm talking about Xenosaga I. My bad. Xenogears was actually rather entertining, but again, only for a short while.

Jot Down Your Minor Ideas Here.

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Spears have the added disadvantage, I'm afraid, of not even being particularly sexy (unlike again, say, a whip). That may just be my lone opinion, though.

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Meanwhile I never really liked whips. But have always liked the spear. you could possibly put a resource in to allow all weapons to throwable. But then they need to be able to be picked up.

Anyway get back to work and finish this game by november of this year.

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It'll be done when it's done, but don't worry. Y'all are likely to get plenty of warning here.

James Henley, Designer

Is there anything left to discuss?

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We already said that there likely wouldn't be a z-axis (although that term is often mis-used). Be that as it may, all three things on that list are currently under investigation. Which isn't saying much other than, at the moment, they're not ruled out.

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Now who's the instigator?