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Dragon Age Forum News (Dec. 04, 04)

Discussion in 'Game/SP News & Comments' started by chevalier, Dec 4, 2004.

  1. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Here are today's Dragon Age forum highlights, collected by NWVault. Please take into account that these are only single parts of various threads and should not be taken out of context. Bear in mind also that the posts presented here are copied as-is, and that any bad spelling and grammar does not get corrected on our end.

    Don Moar, Tools Programmer

    DA toolset/modability: Softcode everything!
    Hey, Making a game like DA or NWN requires more than content creation tools like the NWN (or even DA) Toolset. Typically, the tools programmers on a given project will provide tools to accomplish:

    1) Asset management, processing and packaging. An example would be things like the tools used to build .bif files in NWN.

    2) Content creation. Okay, you know about this one.

    3) Localization. Software for effectively managing the translation of the millions of words (our publishers do the actual translation but we always hold the master copy of all the data) and the hundreds of thousands of files in a typical BioWare RPG.

    4) End-User. You probably know about these, but I expect most people don't give them a second thought. Examples are the install package, launcher (the little program that either launched the game, toolset, updater, etc. in NWN).

    So DA Tools != DA Toolset. :)

    All of these tools have a huge impact on the production team and so must be of the highest quality (in terms of usability, flexibility, performance and stability) and they must be delivered as quickly as possible.

    Georg Zoeller, Designer

    This HL2 thing SUX !!! Will Bioware do the same ?
    I don't like some software do what they are not supposed to do on MY computer.
    If, like in case of the premium module, the you are informed of this behavior right before you buy it, you can make a decision whether or not that is a reason to not buy the software. If you still buy it, well...

    Brenon Holmes, Programmer

    This HL2 thing SUX !!! Will Bioware do the same ?
    Quick comment: I'm not totally certain, but we can probably find better ways to 'protect' the singleplayer campaign than forcing people to authenticate online every time they want to play.

    Copyright law and legal ownership of digital content are some pretty sticky issues and unfortunately, probably won't be definitively decided for some time... at the end of the day, you want to play the game and we want you to enjoy it.

    Any system that impedes either of those goals should probably be looked at rather carefully. There's usually a better way...

    Stanley Woo, Quality Assurance

    This HL2 thing SUX !!! Will Bioware do the same ?
    I mean...if a person buy the game with their hard earnt money, they should have some freedom on their copy as well as some respect, giving up some of those to the developers is quite BS I think. The fact is not everyone has internet, and unless the game is only aim for US market, because in other country, internet is not as much popular as it is here. I have a broadband too, but I usually turn it off before I play game because I disable anti-virus scan to free some memory, but now I have to leave the net on? That's kind of rediculous.

    All these copyright is getting too far. When you buy a copy, it's your property, as long as you don't make copies and distribute it, you should be fine. Because it's your property, you should have some confidence for that, the way they're doing right now make me feel sometime I rent a game for 50$, not buy it because it likes they're telling "hey, this is how you must use your properties"
    Before people start in with the "I bought it so I can do whatever I want with it" argument that has long been bandied about on these forums, let me point out that software purchases don't quite work that way. If you read the EULA, you will notice that what you have purchased is a license to use the software; the actual "ownership" of the software remains in the hands of the developer. The buyer of the software product does not own the software, nor can he do whatever he wants with it. A license is granted to the buyer to use the software in the way in which it was intended to be used.

    Other licenses, like NWN, grant the buyer the ability to create derivative works (modules or modifications) using the software so long as certain conditions are met. Still others grant a certain number of people to use the software in the same building at the same time. But please don't mistake this for "ownership" in the traditional sense.

    More: That's where the conflict arises, fluffyamoeba. It's the developer's desire to protect its software versus the consumer's desire for unhindered "ownership" of that software. It's a debate that's been going on as long as copy protection schemes have been in use and doens't seem to be letting up anytime soon.

    More:
    Well, that is what software companies like Bioware *want* it to be like. However, it is not a view that has been well tested in court.
    And consumers feel entitled to do whatever they want with whatever they buy; this is a given. You're omitting, however, the fact that the strict legalities of EULAs have not been well tested in court either way. As far as I know, the debate still rages on as to whether software is a product or a service. Until that debate has been settled, your word is as good as mine on the subject. I think each of us will stick to our respective sides on this one. :)
    Quote: There are big limitations on what a contract betweeen a company and a private person can contain, and whether you actually have a signed contract if you find one tucked into a sealed product you bought with no warning about this on the outside... well, let's just say this is a contested opinion.
    Agreed.
    Quote: In any case, the claim above that you do not actually own the software (and by software I assume one means the physical bits on the CD) is plain rubbish. When you go to the shop and purchase the game, there is a transfer of ownership. If you say otherwise, you must accuse the shop owners of fraud, because this is what *they* make it look like and say it is. And there is no way that an EULA can be a way to transfer ownership from a private person to a company, because there is no record of ownership, no paper trail. I have a receipt from the shop that the CDs are mine, what can you show? Nothing.
    The software contained on the CD details the terms of use. Most software will direct users to agree to their license agreement; some try to ensure that the end-user reads all the way down to the bottom before being able to agree. Personal opinion and perception of whether the agreement is valid notwithstanding, consciously clicking on the "I agree" button means just that--that the user agrees to abide by the terms of the license.

    This is where it gets sticky. Some of the steps between purchase and installation hinder the average user from fully understanding and using the agreement. For one thing, some retailers have strict no-return policies regarding software. The language of the agreement may be couched in "legalese," or complex legal jargon. The agreement may include unreasonable terms restricting convenient usage or giving overbroad permissions or access to the software or its creators. The agreement itself may be seen as tantamount to extortion ("agree to our terms or you don't use the product").

    This is why the debate continues, and why we're not going to solve it here, no matter how much we talk. I do enjoy a good discussion, though. :)
    Quote: I think what you mean to say is something else, namely that Bioware has immaterial right claims against the physical property that we own (the CDs), that adds significant restrictions (above and beyond those of ordinary copyright law) concerning what we can do with it. Probably. But what restrictions are actually valid and which are wishful thinking on behalf of Bioware (and other software companies using EULAs), remains very much an open question.
    And I would not say otherwise. What I will say is that this is not a new development. As I noted before, this debate has been going on long before I got involved with computers or computer gaming. As such, I view it as a given that I will have to agree to a license upon installation.

    Companies like BioWare and others have the right to reasonable protection of their intellectual property and protection from liability if end-users use their software for unauthorized purposes (eg. NWN servers charging user fees or module creators selling new creatures or tilesets). That license agreement also spells out the terms of addressing those problems. Technical support information, terms of use, and even liability concerns are usually spelled out. Leaving it up to individual users to decide what they can do with "their" software, and who's responsible when problems arise (how many users would blame themselves?) would be disastrous. :D

    More:
    Some programs and games have been known to not work if you have CD burning software installed, or even a CD burner.. :rolleyes: The same goes for tools like Daemon-Tools, which certainly *can be used for warez, but by no means guarantee you are doing so, and certainly not for the program in question.
    For me, that's one of the things that crosses the line. IT shouldn't be Company A's business if I happen to enjoy Company B's software as well. What's the evolution of this development, refusing to install if you have a rival's application already on your system? :D

    Bio, can you give us a status report?
    Blue is a bad thing? Hmmm, It's my favorite colour.

    It's not my idea that drow have pitch black skin. In fact, I like the drawings of Viconias portrait and that chick on the BG Aliance box much better than drawings of pitch black elves. Who in turn look much better than smurfs.
    I agree wholeheartedly. But neither Viconia nor Drizzt will be in Dragon Age. Also, the character of Darcy Pajak has been changed from a great and noble human king of a far-off kingdom of light to a lowly gnomish stand-up comedian in South Jersey.
    :D Ever!

    Just Some Thoughts...
    PS: Please have a better movement sytem than point and click? I am sick of that game engine for movement. Point and click to inetract, point and click to move, point and click to use items, point and click to target, point and click to... Do you see a problem here?
    Um... not to be difficult here, but how much easier than point-and-click do you want? One click, and the character will either move, talk or interact with an object. It's contextual, intuitive and easy to use.

    What are some alternatives you would like to see?

    [ December 04, 2004, 21:51: Message edited by: chevalier ]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2018
    chevalier, Dec 4, 2004
    #1
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