Dex or Str

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If there were two fighters of the same level and stats, except one of the fighters had 15 Str and 20 Dex, and the other had 20 str and 15 dex, who would be the most likly to win?

This is assuming that they both have normal plate for armour, no shield a helmet and a long sword all normal gear, and it also assumes they are both level 10, and a relativly high hp of 80-90.

Also how relevant is Dex above 18, as enemys become stronger and more powerful? would the Dex have to increase to keep any advantage?

 

I'd go with the stronger Fighter since, with a higher Strength, he/(she?) can do more damage.

On the other hand, I allways take Str before Dex...

(To the obvious dislike of the Dragons i kill ).....

 

As I see it:

They both have decent to hit.

In this case:

Strength applies to both, to hit and damage output.
Dexterity applies only to to be not hit.

Which means:
  Strength oriented:
    damage output: 1 advantage point
    to hit: 1 advantage point
    to be not hit: 0 advantage points
  Dexterity oriented:
    damage output: 0 advantage points
    to hit: 0 advantage points
    to be not hit: 1 advantage points

Strength: 2
Dexterity: 1

 

The fighter with 20 Str and 15 Dex would win most likely. On the contrary, if they were not fighting in melee, but in ranged combat (Dex greatly modifies ranged THAC0), the chances would change.
In that case, however, we should separate the ranged weapons to two categories: where the Str affects the damage (usually throwing weapons), and where it does not.

 

The best defense is a good offense. That's why Kensai's are so great.

Str it is.

Plus, although I don't have ToB, I've heard that AC is pretty much irrelevent in ToB because the enemies' thac0 is so low. Is that true?

 

Well ranged isn't an isue IMHO since in the original post it is clearly stated they have longswords. Now onto the math:

As fighters I assume they have grand mastery in longsword and are using the BGII table for it.

First number is Str-based, second is Dex-based
thaco 6, 9
AC 1, -2
damage 1d8+11, 1d8+3

Str-based: 60% chance to hit, with average damage per hit of 15.5, means 9.3 damage per attack.
Dex-based: 60% chance to hit, with average damage per hit of 7.5, means 4.5 damage per attack.

Since they have the same number of attacks per round this means statistically that the dex-based fighter will be dead more than twice as fast as the str-based fighter. And all this is considering they are wearing helmets, the difference would be even higher if we counted in double damage from criticals.

[EDIT: corrected some numerical errors, thnx to Splunge]

[ January 29, 2004, 13:11: Message edited by: Meatdog ]

 

Yes, I think so.

However, AC is still important in my opinion, because there still are enemies whose THAC0 is not so good.Anyway, if Armour Class decreases the hit chances of enemies even a bit, that still can help...

 

Thats not really true, because your ac goes very low during tob. Most of my tanks run around with ac under -15 all the time. So yeah ac counts, even in tob.

 

Dex over Str any day. There are many STR boosting items yet very few dex boosting ones and those are crap in comparison. Moment you get yourself a girdle of Stone or Fire giant strength you'll be stronger than the other character you are comparing yourself to, yet there is no dexterity boosting item that grants you 20 or greater dex.

 

@ Abomination
IIRC there are gauntlets of Dexterity and these are good enough as for AC 20 dex is equal to 18 dex, they both only give -4 AC. At dex 21 the bonus increases to -5 and at dex 24 it reaches it final -6 bonus. This is why it is a waste trying to get your dex very high just for AC. But I do agree that every point of AC counts since it always means 5% less hits on your character, except if they have really bad AC. On the other hand the bonusses from str are much better since they improve by every extra point in it. But as said before, you can easily pump that with belts.

 

Strifestrike, perhaps -15 AC helps against Fire Giants, Drow Warriors, Umber Hulks, etc.
But I doubt it causes much problem to Drow Kensai, dragons, main villains (e.g. Yaga-Shura) etc.

I have noticed that the discussion shifted into the direction of whether Dex or Str is more important. It is okay in my opinion, but let's not forget the original question, which is different:

 

but ac helps reduce physical damage doesent it?

Considering you face these guys in such large numbers at a time then it's probably a good idea to use armor.

True but these are either one time enemies only or they are rare at best, and besides, when they are been attacked about 40-50 times a round they would be lucky to still be standing after a couple of seconds anyway.

 

No it does not. AC helps to avoid enemy attacks, it "prevents not absorbs" damage as the manual says.
Those main villains are not so easy to destroy. You can attack a dragon 50 times per round, but I wonder how many attacks are successful...

 

The 20Str Fighter would stomp on the 20Dex Fighter. After all the original poster did say that they have similar equipment and experience levels. And Dex modifies AC but Str modifies THACO and damage.

And no, Armour does not affect damage recieved, only the possibility of of being hit.
I think there is a mod for 2ed rules whereby AC modifies damage rolls instead of attack rolls. But Im not sure if its for IWD or BG2.

 

I don't think 'stomp' is the right word. The 20 dex fighter would have a bonus of 4 to his AC while the 20 Str fighter would recieve a bonus 3 to hit. Thats an advantage of 1 to the 20 dex fighter. Now consider also that the dex character would have a missle weapon also (what idiot characer wouldn't have a missle weapon with a dex that high?) so give them both a longbow or something, otherwise you're setting the field for the STR character. Might as well ask who would win if they were naked and both had hammers of thunderbolts (20 str would win simply because you require 18 str to wield the hammer).

Now throw that into the mix and you'll find that it all depends on the throw of the die.

 

The big advantage is not in the 20 str fighter's ability to hit - it's in the damage he does. A 15 in strength - if I remember correctly - does not give any bonus to hit or damage. I don't know what the bonus is for a 20 str, but I know a 19 in strength is +3 to hit and +7 to damage, so I assume a 20 in strength is at least +4/+8. So that effectively doubles the maximum damage the 20 strength fighter does with his long sword. The 15 strength fighter would have to score a critical hit for every one of the 20 strength fighter's regular hits just to keep up.

I'm not a statistical genius, but I'd put the odds of the 15 strength fighter winning at 1 in 10, and I'm being very generous in that.

 

20 Strength gives +3/+8, but certainly that is still very high.
As far as winning chances of the "weaker" (Str 15) fighter are concerned, you were indeed generous in my opinion; I would give less than 5% instead of your 10.

 

No, no, no! The dexterity guy wins it. Look, 'the best defense is a good offense' is only true in sport! On the field of battle, where there are no corners to get trapped in, no ropes to get pinned against, et al. dex. comes into it's own. Remember, that dexterity is a composite score that includes speed as well as quickness (the ability to dodge) and hand eye coordination, balance, etc. Thus, the fighter with the much superior dex. would (as long as he has enough Wis.!) run and fight, run and fight. A human with dex. 18 has Carl Lewis speed! One with 20 dex. would be a human darting about like a chicken! He would be absolutely uncatchable and could easily put any amount of distance between himself and the stronger fighter. He would use his strengths (missile combat) and cover his weaknesses (in this case, it doesn't make sense to trade melee blows with a fighter with giant strength!).
The long and the short of it is this: in certain circumstances, the one would win and in others, the other would win. Remember that stamina is also a component of strength, so running in mountainous, muddy or sandy terrain, which is very tiring, could become a factor. As could critical hits...!
Many factors in a combat. One cannot and should not (in my opinion) attempt to boil down the game into simplistic scenrios.

[ January 28, 2004, 12:45: Message edited by: keldor ]

 

@keldor – now you’re just making things up. In BG2 (which is what this topic and forum are about), Wis is irrelevant, Dex has no effect on speed, and Str has no implications for stamina. Sure, if you want to argue that, for roleplaying purposes, these things should have an impact, then go ahead, but the fact is that, by design, they don’t, so the argument IMO would be kinda silly. Try telling a 15 Dex enemy that he should run slower than you do with 20 Dex, and see how successful you are.

All that Dex affects is missile weapons (which I’m assuming is irrelevant in this discussion) and AC. Str, on the other hand, affects damage and thac0 (as far as relevant factors go here.) Since AC and thac0 are simply different sides of the same coin, and since the difference in AC for 20 vs. 15 Dex is the same as the difference in thac0 for 20 vs. 15 Str, the two cancel each other out. So you’re left with the better damage, and Str wins.

 

Splunge, unless one gives casey the benefit of the doubt and assumes his question is entirely theoretical and not only BG2-based, it is, with respect, a no-brainer. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Didn't someone else speak of using missile weapons? Since both fighters would be moving at the same movement rate in BG2, this would be a stupid argument as well - the missile firer wouldn't be able to get any space in which to fire upon his opponent. So clearly, at least one other poster thought the question was theoretical.

Here is the question from the original post:
If there were two fighters of the same level and stats, except one of the fighters had 15 Str and 20 Dex, and the other had 20 str and 15 dex, who would be the most likly to win?

This is assuming that they both have normal plate for armour, no shield a helmet and a long sword all normal gear, and it also assumes they are both level 10, and a relativly high hp of 80-90.