Dark Arts from God, White Magic from Satan.

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Reading Moses: Miracle Worker or Wizard?, I saw some quotes about Dark Magic, White Magic and if they come from God or Satan.

I was just curious if you believe in these things and where you think it has its origin.

I believe in demons, angels, God, Satan and extraordinairy abilities (exceptional healing, drive out demons etc), whether it's called magic or not.

To start the conversation, I got 1 question for Mathetais:

Completely agreed with.

And then:

And also:

Now read Mat 12:22-30
Satan would never drive out demons.

I know Satan grands people with the ability to do White Magic, but does that also include Driving out demons?
Or:
Would God give these people the ability to drive out demons, even if they don't believe in Him?

 

Couldn't have said it better myself

Would Satan drive out demons?

What happens when authentic Christianity encounters sorcery?

Here is a key passage from Acts 19.

I do think that white magic (read: Pagan) can drive out demons. Remember, there is no unity in Lucifer's kingdom. You see evil devouring itself time and again through history. There are power struggles going on.

Also, what a great way to lure people deeper into his realm. The witch's demon says to his friend, "Take a dive when my witch casts her spell. It won't hurt you, but it will increase my power over her."


WOW ... I realize that I kinda sound like a nut-job with all this, but I really believe it is true.

Remember, as CS Lewis said, Satan has two effective strategies. First, he gets people to ignore him, so he can run freely. If that doesn't work, he gets people to dwell upon him and give him power through their fearful obsession.

The viper's fangs have been removed. Don't worry about him, his days are short.

 

There might be some things that we are unable to explain but there seems to be some people still in the world that are sure they live in a world with more magic than Faerun. It makes me despair over the development of humanity.

If there was such a thing as magic I would think that it would be alot more used, no matter if it comes from some goateewearing runt down below or some bearded togawearing dude up in the clouds. Which is such a bizarre concept that it frightens me alot that people actually take it seriously.

 

About the white magic from God thing...there's a few verses in Galatians chapter 5 that might give some insight: Gal.5:19-21

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkeness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Sorcery is specifically mentioned here as being a sin. So regardless of whether it is used for a "good" reason or not, we can see it is certainly not from God.

 

If Sorcery is from Satan..
Then who´s "servants" are you driving out??

 

Perhaps it's just me, but Satan being connected to white magic and God being connected to black, seems a bit upsidedown

 

Hah, to save both the space and readers' patience and actually have anyone read through what I write, I'll spare you quotes. I honestly don't really feel like seeking them out and typing them in.

So, the New Testament expressly says that Satan never does good. Thus whatever he does that appears good is not good itself either through nature or through aims. As the Prince of Daemons, he has power over the lesser ones - that's what can be derived from Bible's words. What's more he's not really straightforward and as a fallen angel is beyond mortal understanding. This way one won't see through his work without God's help - which leads to the conclusion that judgement based on senses isn't realiable. Satan might well try to present him as better than 'harsh', 'rigid' and 'cruel' God - in fact there are some records of this.

As for possibly receiving magic from God - depends what you consider magic. In various passages throughout the Bible and various periods of history the understanding of this word changes. God doesn't supply spells like d&d make-believe deities do. But He has empowered people like Patriarchs, Apostles, Saints - some through granting what they were praying for, some more closely to having some power reside within them. Still that power isn't exactly used at will since it's the power of God. Close to this are for example annointments (Kings, priests) and blessings - giving power or placing one under the influence thereof.

Supplying one's power from Satan works in a similar way, daemons understood as Satan's underlinks and foreign deities if existent understood as daemons. What we regard as Black Magic fits here, but troubles arise when White Magic is concerned. Several verses refer to drawing power from Earth or Earth's spirit, but depending on the context this may mean de facto serving Satan or worshipping the elements. There aren't however any records of some sources of White Magic other than daemons.

Apart from drawing actual power from daemons, magic as viewed by Christianity includes believing in supernatural forces, even superior to God (or binding God), that may be forced to act according to a mortal's will by a few incantations. Most strictly here belong superstitions and 'commercial' or rather trade-off approach towards God, which is alas so common among believers (relying solely on the material aspect of prayer supposed to automatically make God grant the wish).

Fairy-tale or Harry Potter-like approach to magic relies on different concepts - magic as a set of physical laws, accesible to all or people specifically talented or trained. This doesn't fit the Biblical cathegories of witchcraft or sorcery (as this world has no physical force of the sort).

 

I never saw the difference between "white" and "black" magic... all the same in the eye of the beholder

 

I was under the impression that "black" magic was intended to harm and "white" magic was intended to help.

 

A lot of this sort of terminology is based on your particular belief system -- I have a very good friend who is Wiccan, and she believes in Grey Magic, IIRC, in that the Grey actually combats evil, while White is just as good, but ignores evil.

I believe in the power of God, which to me is not magic, and while I believe that Satan has some power on this Earth, I don't believe that it is magic in the sense that some people use.

I liked your C.S. Lewis quote, Mathetais! The man was a genius.

 

Oh?

And what if you harm a person, like kill him. Will there no "good" come of this?

And what if you heal that person, don´t you hurt his environment with your actions?

 

In Job 1,2 and Zech 3:1,2 it talks about Satan who use to be the Angel who tested human loyalty, who soon fallen to become a tempter and false accuser. And the Greek word for devil is diabolos which means slanderer/deciever, which means he can "drive" out demons as a test of loyalty to their God, or to decive the people.

 

Drive out demons?

Before you proceed with demons, there are some questions I want you to answer me.
1. How many demons you've seen so far or how many people possessed by demons?
2. How can you tell who is possessed and who is just mentally ill?

Sorry for interruption in your topic, but I can't see any links between ability to "drive out demons" and good/evil.

 

Extremist, your post reminds me of the preacher in Little Nicky

 

Heh, correct, but it's not the performer's intention that really drive the act.

@Depaara: As I have already said, this depends on what you see as magic, provided that you deprive the word of its basic negative conotation.

 

Ermm, isn´t he still a angel who tests human loyalty then?

 

Well theoretically he is, but he is a parody of God, by creating his own kingdom Mark 3:22, however the Bible disallows equal existence to power outside of God. So really he is "good" but is the personification of evil.

 

Maybe you thinking of him having his own kingdom away from "God´s" power is a sign you failed the loyalty test, since I thought "God" was everything ant the creator of everything

[ April 19, 2003, 16:02: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

Well, he's not even *really* good, he's been banished for adoring himself in God's place early on. So this way the guilt lies with him too, not only with humans. He's to be punished in the latter days. He and death will be vanished then.

 

Actually, there are two views on Apocolypes, one school says that the world wil be destroyed and all the people true to God are in Heavan. Another is that the world will be remade new again.

[EDIT] MoN and Mat, it says in Matt12:24 that the Pharisees called Jesus a servant of Satan, after he chased away a demon, or Beezlbub, to discredit him, so really, the devil did not banish demons. And to add, Jesus said: "If Satan drives out Satan, then he is divide against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?" so Mon I think you misread that part.

[ April 19, 2003, 16:05: Message edited by: Tarsakh ]